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Post by SaintYin on Mar 7, 2015 11:45:46 GMT -7
I've decided to start purchasing manacles, but I'd like to get some stats on what exactly they'd do. It's stated manacles "bind" a creature, and while I'd be fine with saying creatures in manacles are Helpless or Pinned (only two conditions that reference a "bound" creature), I'm pretty sure that's not the case. I believe it would be some form of lesser grappling effect, but I'd like some numbers to be agreed upon before some DM decides that since it doesn't explicitly state an effect occurs, there is no impact to being clapped in manacles. To be specific: 1) Do manacles harm a creatures' ability to cast spells with somatic components? 2) Can a creature pick the lock to their own manacles? 3) What kind of weapons can a creature use while manacled? 4) Should there be a penalty to dexterity, dexterity-based skills, or both? As a reminder, there are no official rules on manacles. I've placed a thread on Paizo's boards, but that is not expected to generate an answer any time soon. I'd like a referable resource when manacles are used in DG, to keep things fair. |
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diskelemental
Lich
Banned
A better world, whether you want it or not.
Posts: 781 
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Post by diskelemental on Mar 7, 2015 14:15:50 GMT -7
1. It's like being tied up
2. Yes.
3. Light or 1 handed, also natural weapons
4. There's the standard penalty to dex.
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Post by SaintYin on Mar 7, 2015 18:08:00 GMT -7
1. Tied up is listed as being pinned by the item, and when it's done via grappling with rope, the creature is also considered helpless. Helpless or pinned creatures cannot move or take actions. 2. According to this set of tools, the character would not be able to reach their own manacles without them, or at least some sort of thieves' tools available and in-hand. I can agree if the character had extra arms or a prehensile tail that wasn't manacled, but your ruling of always being able to seems like it's ignoring this item. I am fairly certain the creature should be considered Grappled by the manacles, but not entirely grappled. As a short conclusion, these are the listed effects under Grapple: -4 penalty to Dexterity -2 to attack rolls Cannot take actions that require both hands. Cannot cast spells with somatic components. Cannot cast spells with material components not in hand. Must make a concentration roll of (10+Grappler CMB+Spell Level) to cast any spell. Cannot make attacks of opportunity. I'm sure there's something else to prevent someone being grappled from moving away from its grappler, but I'm not seeing a specific statement on that. Assuming the escape artist roll to get free from manacles follows the same rules as grappling, then normal manacles have a +10 to grapple, while masterwork manacles would have a +15. There are some aspects that should clearly be removed, such as the inability to move or make attacks of opportunity, but overall it's a more accurate representation than assuming a manacled creature is helpless/pinned. As mentioned in the original post, I'd like a set of specific stats agreed upon by the DG GMs, so I have something to reference if a manacle issue comes up (which I suspect may in the near future). |
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tkul
Death Knight
Banned
Posts: 406
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Post by tkul on Mar 7, 2015 21:03:09 GMT -7
Manacles already have rules for getting out of them. No need to try to house rule anything there -
Manacles can bind a Medium creature. A manacled creature can use the Escape Artist skill to slip free (DC 30, or DC 35 for masterwork manacles). Breaking the manacles requires a Strength check (DC 26, or DC 28 for masterwork manacles). Manacles have hardness 10 and 10 hit points.
Grappled condition wouldn't be proper for manacles as it inflicts penalties for whole body actions, there would need to be a whole lot of caveats put onto the grapple rules to make them come close to making sense. For instance the -2 to attack rolls makes no sense for someone like a monk who doesn't need their hands and wouldn't be inconvenienced by having their hands shackled together. You're probably going to have to go on a case by case basis of what the character is trying to do and what the situation is at the time. Since somatic components are pretty broad its hard to say whether or not having your wrists stuck together would actually hurt it, for instance back in 3rd edition the somatic component for burning hands was you touch your thumbs together and make a cone out from there with your pinkies, that wouldn't have been impacted by having your wrists shackled but in pathfinder they've finally done away with all the old goobery component stuff where it doesn't have an exact mechanical component. I could see it acting as the entangled condition for casting but not really the grappled condition mostly because the manacles are not actively trying to prevent you from doing something.
I have a feeling you'll never get an official ruling on what manacles do beyond "what the GM says they do" from Paizo.
For me I'd probably give it the -2 attack penalty for weapon attacks made with handheld weapons. I want to say a penalty to strength and dexterity based skills but there's no reason why shackles should make it harder to make a long jump for instance. Entangled for spellcasting seems fair, and outside of that it'd have to be a case by case basis of what the character's trying to do.
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Post by SaintYin on Mar 7, 2015 23:30:07 GMT -7
If you take a magnifying glass to every possible impact of a stat or skill penalty, a lot of things stop making sense. Why would Fetters reduce attack rolls with melee weapons when a character is standing still? Why should a character cast defensively if the spell has no components to dictate they're casting something? The point of stat penalties is that it impacts the character's general ability to accomplish something, not that a character might not be impacted under some specific circumstance. Having your hands forcibly held together impact one's ability to fight as effectively in combat. The position of one's arms is vital to balance and maintaining a solid center of mass. While things like long-jumping, kicking, and so forth can be done while wearing manacles, it would generally increase the risk of failure to do the same with manacles clapped. One has to reposition and improvise, and that means you're not getting 100% of your effect by comparison to before. Take the item, Fetters, for example. They're manacles meant to be placed around the feet. It states flat-out the creature gains the Entangled effect. Entangled is the following: -4 penalty to Dexterity -2 to attack rolls move at half speed Cannot charge or run Concentration or lose spell (DC 15+spell level) Using your interpretation, this is all sorts of wrong. A blanket-penalty to attack rolls, instead of just to attacks using your feet? An indirect penalty to dexterity skills such as disable device or Fly? Why would one even need to concentrate on spells? Your hands and mouth are free, so it's not impacting somatic or verbal components. The reason I'm suggesting the use of a lesser Grappled effect is so Fetters and Manacles are both around the same power level, and putting both on a creature actually is meaningful. I'd prefer a new set of debuffs was not created, as that means one more debuff that can get stacked up against a creature, or a player. And as I mentioned, I want something I can point to when a GM decides that manacles are meaningless on NPCs, but crippling to PCs. |
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Ash
Approvals
This world is only big enough for one loli.
Posts: 277
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Post by Ash on Mar 8, 2015 11:50:30 GMT -7
Disk's answers seem about right. Maybe limiting manacles to only affecting skills that require fine hand precision. As far as the fetters go, I don't really see a problem with the -2 to attack, if you're going to argue that the inability to use your legs wouldn't affect all characters then you'll have to make the same arguments for every condition in the game. 'Should X character really take a -4 penalty for being prone when he doesn't need his lower body' ect. There are some things the developers just assumed when they were making their decisions, and trying to reevaluate every rule will just make DG a lot more convoluted and harder to get into. As far as skills go, only harming skills that make use of your feet seems reasonable to me.
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Post by dragonus45 on Mar 8, 2015 14:00:29 GMT -7
I'll just weigh in with scenes of monks and other martial artists doing battle with tied up hands is a longstanding tradition in wuxia cinema so I think it makes sense to say a monk with tied up hands would be hurt less than a fighter. It fits under part of the idea from the Improved Unarmed Combat feat that they can use any part of the body effectively thus are never unarmed.
As for casters, I say a manacled caster casts no spells. Partly because it feels like a balance concern letting them cast in manacles if the spell requires somatic, but partly because I worry the number of casters suddenly missing fingers/hands/arms because people don't feel like tying them up will be safe enough.
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tkul
Death Knight
Banned
Posts: 406
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Post by tkul on Mar 8, 2015 15:40:46 GMT -7
I actually like the fact that you have to have someone who knows what they're doing (read: has decent CMB) tie up a caster in order to stop them from casting spells, as opposed to every mook on the block grabbing a pair of manacles and slapping them on. Entangled would show that it's difficult to cast with your hands tied, and would make pinning and tying someone a necessary skill.
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Post by hobbad on Mar 8, 2015 15:51:42 GMT -7
I know I'm new but, here's my two cents. I have seen some DMs handle Manacles as an act of entangling ( some make an exception on the checks to escape from the bounds, personally I disagree. Manacles are meant to restrict movement and should also impede your ability to escape them )
1.) Affecting Spell Casting
Your hands being bound would restrict both your Semantic & Material components of spells and like entangled would require an addition Concentration check of DC 15 + Spell Level on the spells they can cast.
2.) Picking the Lock
Disable Device is only a trained skill so the average joe would not be able to pick the lock. The normal DC for picking a common manacle, assuming the lock is simple, would be 20. Assuming you do not have access to you thieves tools as your hands are bound would increase the DC to 30. Effectively making the DC the same for the Escape Artist check.
3.) Wielding Weapons
As Manacles are not Bar Cuffs you would still be able to have enough movement to grab objects ( like weapons ) and use them. However, as with the entangled affect you would not be able to use the weapon as efficiently as you normal would you to have a -2 to attack and -4 to dexterity.
4.) Penalties
Why a blanket debuff to attacks and dexterity? Manacles are not handcuffs they weight 2 pounds and while that may not seem like a lot it's also distributed unevenly, weighing heavily on your wrists and you also have a metal chain whipping about as you're attempting to fight. Even if you were to wrap the chains around your wrists you just would not have the same range of motion that an unbound person would have. Attacking with your feet would also be more difficult as more fighting styles that incorporate attacks with your feet are still using your hands for attacks, balance, and full fluid motions.
References:
Pathfinder Core Rulebook:
Pathfinder Core Rulebook:
Pathfinder Core Rulebook:
Pathfinder Core Rulebook:
Pathfinder Core Rulebook:
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Post by SaintYin on Mar 8, 2015 18:49:47 GMT -7
I agree with Dragonus45 & hobbad. dragonus45You are absolutely correct in your interpretation. If there's no moderate-grade nonmagic response to keeping casters under control, people will either just kill casters on sight instead of capturing them, or they're going to start removing hands, tongues, and eyes. Heal checks to staunch bleeding is cheap, manacles that prevent dimensional escape cost something to the tune of 35,000 gold a pair, and the caster can still use Knock to open those, then use a dimensional escape. hobbadI'd still prefer to use the Grappled effect. It applies the same statistical penalties, but it would mean Fetters would stack with manacles and it more accurately represents the somatic penalties of spellcasting. Additionally, Entangled mentions half movespeed, which seems off for manacles to have. On the other hand, using Grappled would provide too high of a concentration DC. If the best I can get is an Entangled effect, I'm fine with that. I do need to ask a few questions if Entangled does become the answer: 1) Would Fetters stack in penalties with manacles, like an advanced Entangled effect? 2) Is your interpretation of the lock DC increase on top of the +10 DC increase from trying to pick a lock without tools? |
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Post by hobbad on Mar 8, 2015 22:23:18 GMT -7
Hey Saint,
I think that the effects on abilities of Grappling & Entangled are fairly similar and the key differences being Grappled is tailored to being bound by a living being while Entangled is being bound by an inanimate object. Grappled also has an array of effects (like not being able to move, not being able to stealth, using both of your hands, etc) that, while difficult, are definitely plausible while wearing Manacles.
1.) Manacles vs Fetters
I have seen some GMs, for simplicity sake, base the penalty purely on the fetters description and not stack the penalties, reasoning that the manacles impede your movement more or less the same as the fetters do. Some split the penalties of Entangled between the two types by simply cut the speed modifier off for manacles and have the combat and dexterity penalties apply across the board. The more reasonable one I have seen heavily balanced in favor of manacles, with fetters being seen as an additive to aid the manacles ( it also assumes that magic users can function, more or less, normall just in fetters without manacles ):
Global [aka for either / does not stack]:
-1 Attack
-2 Dexterity
Manacles:
-1 Attack (in addition to global)
-2 Dexterity (in addition to global)
Can not cast spells that require Semantic & Material components [ unless materials are in hand]
Concentration check of DC 15 + Spell Level on the spells they can cast.
Fetters:
Move at half speed, cannot run or charge.
May move faster than half speed ( Acrobatics check DC 15 / Fall Prone on 10- )
2.) Pick Lock
Clarification: DC 20 [for the lock] + 10 [for lack of tools]
I doubt there's any more reason to add further penalty on a minimum of a DC 30 [ since this DC is just for a simple lock and you can put whatever kind of lock you want on a Manacle ] and you are already attempting a Disable Device at a -4 dexterity penalty. I would say that's difficult enough to slip out or pick it without the proper tools or being unaided.
Resource:
Advanced Race Guide
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