darthsawyer
GM
Your friendly neighborhood CS major
Posts: 76 
|
Post by darthsawyer on Dec 21, 2014 22:53:01 GMT -7
Myself and several other GMs ( see this thread) all like this rule. I suggest we enable the combination of magical items following the provided rules. EDIT: Fixed link |
|
|
|
Post by wizardfrog on Dec 23, 2014 10:03:00 GMT -7
You just linked this thread. But you mean the combining properties into one item correct? Like putting a headband of charisma and a phylactery of pos channeling together for a price markup.
|
|
Zanos
Leadership Council
No
how did i get here i am not good with computer
Posts: 684
|
Post by Zanos on Dec 23, 2014 11:23:10 GMT -7
I believe I already mentioned that I feel Magic Tattoos cover this niche.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gryphyx on Dec 23, 2014 14:06:39 GMT -7
This seems really strong to me. The only way I would support it is if there were some sort of exponential cost increase as you see with the magic item progression (+1, +2, etc...). Not sure if that would be possible to do though.
|
|
darthsawyer
GM
Your friendly neighborhood CS major
Posts: 76
|
Post by darthsawyer on Dec 25, 2014 15:35:13 GMT -7
You just linked this thread. But you mean the combining properties into one item correct? Like putting a headband of charisma and a phylactery of pos channeling together for a price markup. Yep, exactly. The provided rule is that you add 50% to the cost of the second enchant |
|
darthsawyer
GM
Your friendly neighborhood CS major
Posts: 76
|
Post by darthsawyer on Dec 25, 2014 15:41:17 GMT -7
This seems really strong to me. The only way I would support it is if there were some sort of exponential cost increase as you see with the magic item progression (+1, +2, etc...). Not sure if that would be possible to do though. Most items with multiple effects use this rule (e.g. belts of physical stats. 4K + (4K *1.5) = 10K). For an exponential increase, how about the increase in price doubles per item added? This wouldn't follow the existing pattern of magic items but would provide a rapid increase. So adding 1 effect to a a Cloak of Resistance would cost the normal price for the separate item, plus an additional 50% of the cost, then adding another effect to the Cloak of Resistance (+ extra effect) would cost double the normal price, a 4th effect would be triple, 5th would be quintuple etc. |
|
darthsawyer
GM
Your friendly neighborhood CS major
Posts: 76
|
Post by darthsawyer on Dec 25, 2014 15:55:04 GMT -7
I believe I already mentioned that I feel Magic Tattoos cover this niche. For those that weren't in GM chat during our discussion, here's a summary: Zanos doesn't like how long it makes item names (minor), doesn't think it is expensive enough, and thinks Magic Tattoos should suffice. I said that since magical tattoos are so much easier to destroy than items it isn't worth the extra price (especially since although you are paying double for a "slotless" magic item they still take up a magic tattoo slot. Meaning it at most doubles your slots, so adding cool enchants like Sleeves of Many Garments wouldn't be practical). I agree with Zanos that even though the price is 150% it still may be too cheap, and I would support changing it to a flat 200% cost to add an effect (the slotless price) since you are basically getting a slotless benefit. Below is only tangentially related: For the mentioned reasons, I don't think magic tattoos are worth the 200% price, and as an additional point, the receiver of a magic tattoo must be present while it is being made, locking your character out. If fully-completed tattoos were available for purchase at the emporium, that might provide incentive to actually get one. Changes to magical tattoos is not the objective of this post, but if changes are to be made, I suggest enacting that offer and reducing the price of magical tattoos to 150% since they aren't really slotless, and because a tattoo is strictly inferior. |
|
Zanos
Leadership Council
No
how did i get here i am not good with computer
Posts: 684
|
Post by Zanos on Dec 25, 2014 16:34:24 GMT -7
I believe I already mentioned that I feel Magic Tattoos cover this niche. I said that since magical tattoos are so much easier to destroy than items it isn't worth the extra price (especially since although you are paying double for a "slotless" magic item they still take up a magic tattoo slot. That just isn't true. Magic items can be sundered very easily, Magic Tattoos can only be destroyed by an erase spell if you fail a will save(vs a level 1 spell; saves don't get any easier) and the caster makes a CL check. You also have to actually touch magical writing to erase it, so just cover your tats. The only other circumstance which can result in the destruction of a tattoo requires that your character be helpless(unconscious, paralyzed, or otherwise totally at your opponents mercy), in which case you and your magic items were screwed anyway. If anything magic tattoos are better, because when your headband gets sundered you don't lose 2+ magic items that you had combined. Speaking of which, my other problem with combining magic items is that there's no cap on the number of things you can jam together. Not that I think sundering magic items is an appropriate tactic in most circumstances. |
|
|
|
Post by shroudb on Dec 26, 2014 6:42:00 GMT -7
just to chime in.
the main offenders (imo) are the three "stat" slots:
headband
belt
cloak
there are a gadzillion cool items for those slots, but each character is unable to equip them, because PF CR growth "assumes" that you have an ench bonus to your main stat and a resistance bonus to your saves depending on level. Those three slots are thus rendered "locked" by bland, and unimaginative, boring stat items.
both options (add on top, and magic tattoos) have their pros and cons. But at LEAST one should be available.
If we go the magic tattoo route, we add the additional hurdle of one more crafting feat tax. Thematically, it may also be silly and weird for some characters to load up their face p.e. with tattoos.
Lastly, not all slots are covered, but since the "big three (for me)" are covered i don't care that much about it.
Adding 2nd property to an item route, has the drawback of allowing people to "load up" a slot with 2-3-4-5 different magic items, and that can quickly break up the game.
It is a bit cheaper than tattoos.
I would vote for the adding to an existing item with the additional modifications of:
can only have 2 "base" enchants
2nd enchat costs 200% instead of 150%.
with the above two, i think the main differance compared to tattoo would be that it would be easier for players to aquire them, due to the clankiness of tattoos (extra downtime, extra magic creation feat, no tattooists atm, etc) thrown out of the window.
ADDITIONALY:
One thing that isn't mentioned, and i think it should be addressed, is static stat items with extra abilities and scaling.
I believe, that in case of belts/headbands/cloaks that function like p.e. "belt of str +X, +Y ability." that Don't scale, that there should be allowed the option to "upgrade" the base enchant bonus.
take p.e.
Belt of thunderous charging (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-of-thunderous-charging)
that item provides a str bonus and an additonal bonus to charges.
Assuming that a character wants to make a charger, and wants that belt, then, in the future, he is unable to increase the enhancement bonus of the belt.
Despite the way that we allow for double enchants (either tattoo or +X% to price) the player is hosed to pay 2 times for the first +2 to str bonus.
There are numerous items that do that. offer a static bonus that doesnt scale alongside the "extra" effect.
For those items, i believe we should allow further enchanting them so as to increase the base enchantment bonus, despite not existing in the srd a "belt of thunderous charging +4" and etc
|
|
darthsawyer
GM
Your friendly neighborhood CS major
Posts: 76
|
Post by darthsawyer on Dec 26, 2014 18:45:19 GMT -7
I like your suggested changes Shroud and agree with you on all your points; I believe the limit to 2 enchants, second one costing double is the best solution. Though another slot for something silly would be nice
|
|
darthsawyer
GM
Your friendly neighborhood CS major
Posts: 76
|
Post by darthsawyer on Dec 27, 2014 4:27:43 GMT -7
I said that since magical tattoos are so much easier to destroy than items it isn't worth the extra price (especially since although you are paying double for a "slotless" magic item they still take up a magic tattoo slot. That just isn't true. Magic items can be sundered very easily, Magic Tattoos can only be destroyed by an erase spell if you fail a will save(vs a level 1 spell; saves don't get any easier) and the caster makes a CL check. You also have to actually touch magical writing to erase it, so just cover your tats. The only other circumstance which can result in the destruction of a tattoo requires that your character be helpless(unconscious, paralyzed, or otherwise totally at your opponents mercy), in which case you and your magic items were screwed anyway. If anything magic tattoos are better, because when your headband gets sundered you don't lose 2+ magic items that you had combined. Speaking of which, my other problem with combining magic items is that there's no cap on the number of things you can jam together. Not that I think sundering magic items is an appropriate tactic in most circumstances. Paying the slotless price for a not really slotless item still is a pretty massive downside. It is true that magic items can be sundered more easily. I was wrong saying it was "strictly superior" taking that into account. However, vulnerability to an erase spell is a weakness that regular magic items do not have. Yes, it would be difficult to successfully destroy a tattoo with the erase spell with no circumstances aiding the caster. Your character must be helpless OR willing. Any mind control/charm spell etc takes care of this (assuming a failed save) at worst an opposed charisma check on successful cast. This also takes care of covering your tattoos. "Hey, take that covering off for me." or "Hey, show me your Tattoo!" "Sure!" Naturally most charms spells that come to mind would end once you are being attacked. They can also be stolen as a standard action with Transfer Tattoo (fort save). Let's collect all the benefits and drawbacks of tattoos compared to regular and compound magic items: Factual Benefits
| Factual Drawbacks
| Names are far more concise and MUCH easier to verify compared to compound items
|
| More difficult to destroy
| More ways to destroy
| More health than equivalent Ioun Stones
| Less Hardness (Importance varies by CR)
| Harder(Impossible?) to steal in a mundane way
| Easier and faster to steal magically
| Flavor(I refuse to use magical items, or vow of poverty)
| Flavor(Refusing to have any tattoos is far more common)
| Can be protected by covering the tattoo
| Trumped by various spells and abilities
| Many buffs to you aids in protecting it
| Object-warding spells cannot be used to protect it
|
| Significantly more expensive
|
| Limited slots
|
| Reincarnate etc destroys all your Tattoos
|
| Must be present during the crafting (Even worse in our setting with lockouts)
| Opinionated Benefits
| Opinionated Drawbacks
| Higher price (Easily changed)
| Higher price (Easily changed)
| Limited total items unlike compound (Easily changed)
| Limited total items unlike compound (Easily changed)
| Simple names are better
| (I suppose if someone totally hated concise names their opinion could go here)
| Adds a single slot for flavorful/cool/silly items in "locked" headband/belt/cloak slot
| Only adds a single slot. There are many more than 1 cool item per slot
|
Let me know if I missed anything to the table and I'll add it in |
|
|
|
Post by Gryphyx on Dec 29, 2014 11:26:30 GMT -7
So what is really gained by allowing stacking base enchantments? And, answer from the perspective of a GM or world builder, not from that of a player who wants more stuff for their characters. How would this make the Dragons Gate experience better? The problem of the "big 3" that Shroud outlines is not a real problem in Dragons Gate because of the availability of off-slot items. For example, Sabien chose to sell off his headband of wisdom +2 for a phylactery of positive energy channeling. He then went shopping at the emporium and got an off slot pair off Goggles of wisdom +2.
So, the flexibility is there and I feel like having to make hard choices is better for the game than "I can have it all".
Now before you say that you can't have it all, keep in mind that we are going to be HUGELY breaking wealth by level because of crafting (50% magic items for crafters and 75% for everyone else), downtime, and the nature of a living world. So... enchantment stacking is just going to be a pure power increase of massive proportions. I'd love to be wrong here, so feel free to prove me so. But again, please come from the perspective of "What is going to be the best choice for the long term health and viability of Dragon's Gate?"
|
|
Ash
Approvals
This world is only big enough for one loli.
Posts: 277
|
Post by Ash on Dec 29, 2014 12:08:17 GMT -7
I'd like to point out that I feel removing a magical tattoo from a player as a GM would be intentionally malicious given the preperations required to do so. I really don't think you need to worry about magical tattoos being removed any more than you need to worry about any other magical items being destroyed.
|
|
|
|
Post by shroudb on Dec 29, 2014 14:06:27 GMT -7
So what is really gained by allowing stacking base enchantments? And, answer from the perspective of a GM or world builder, not from that of a player who wants more stuff for their characters. How would this make the Dragons Gate experience better? The problem of the "big 3" that Shroud outlines is not a real problem in Dragons Gate because of the availability of off-slot items. For example, Sabien chose to sell off his headband of wisdom +2 for a phylactery of positive energy channeling. He then went shopping at the emporium and got an off slot pair off Goggles of wisdom +2. So, the flexibility is there and I feel like having to make hard choices is better for the game than "I can have it all". Now before you say that you can't have it all, keep in mind that we are going to be HUGELY breaking wealth by level because of crafting (50% magic items for crafters and 75% for everyone else), downtime, and the nature of a living world. So... enchantment stacking is just going to be a pure power increase of massive proportions. I'd love to be wrong here, so feel free to prove me so. But again, please come from the perspective of "What is going to be the best choice for the long term health and viability of Dragon's Gate?" flavor. i greatly hate all +x stat items because they are blant and unimaginative and offer nothing more than a pure strict mechanical benefit. unfortunatly, they are required to function properly. bt even when not accounting for straight +x things, there are items that greatly boost your "power" and items that geeatly boost your "flavor" and options, and rarely they are combined. p.e. boots that allow better jumping p.e. are awesome flavor wise, and they offer a bonus in a place where it wouldnt impact a lot in actual "power" of a character, but will allow him to make flavorful things like jump on buildings and such. But on the other hand, a martial would almost always get much more benefit from a pair of boots of speed. Or a cloak of vanishing. it would give options, but not really break the game. unfortunatly, a cloak of resistance is pretty much obligatory. the problem here, is exactly the way dragon's gate is set up. if this was a home campaign, with guaranteed access to haste p.e. from a caster, then you wouldnt need boots of speed. and etc. Also, and more importantly, in a home campaign, a group may decide to focus on flavorful things, and be about equal in power. But here, a character than invests his wealth in such, and a character that is full on combat prowess, will inadvertly mix. And when this happens, it is not fun for an under-optimized character to not be able to do shit in combat, because someone is oneshotting things. And if the gm raises the bar, and brings tougher things in the table so that the combat monster isnt oneshotting things, then the non-optimized one is left in the dust again. lastly. most of those issues are with martial characters. A pure caster, can easily get by with minimal extras from his equip, simply because spells are designed around giving options. A martial on the other hand, needs items to unlock those things, but also needs items to keep up in the power curve. So, once again, this all boils down to caster vs martial disparity. I personally see this on my three characters. Aran, having access to potions and extracts, has a simple item list he wants. My witch will be able to function with even less items. Aluin on the other hand, i keep seeing things and going "ohh this would be so cool to have because i could do X... oh nvm it is a Y slot items, pass" I wouldn't personally mind if we go the tattoo route. But i fail to see WHY to do that instead of simply modifing a bit the merging item rules. Tattoo's only add an additional hurdle imo. |
|
Zanos
Leadership Council
No
how did i get here i am not good with computer
Posts: 684
|
Post by Zanos on Dec 29, 2014 17:59:01 GMT -7
Ioun stones(slotless) are available for all of the ability scores and for resistance bonuses on saves, freeing up more slots if you have the cash. I like tattoos because they force crafters to invest more feats if they want a larger market, which actually makes it weaker than if you could just combine items, and that it has a built in limitation while also being kind of cool(IMO). I guess you could have your tattoos in invisible magic ink if you don't like that? There are entirely slotless options for standard bonus items, and usually the "flavor" items aren't super expensive. I think upgrading items with built in secondary effects such as the Anaconda Coils or the Robe of Runes would be fine, however. Having a +2/4 stat item and having to buy another +6 one because it can't be upgraded is stupid. This is problematic, and is one thing I agree should probably be fixed. In general, I think it would be okay to upgrade any item that grants: A resistance bonus to all saving throws (up to +5 as per cloak of resistance) An enhancement bonus to a stat(up to +6 as per stat items) An enhancement bonus to nautral armor(up to +5 as per amulet of natural armor) A deflection bonus to AC(Up to +5 as per ring of protection) An armor bonus to AC(Up to+8 as per bracers of armor, could also be replaced with special armor abilities) Add other properties/enchants to special weapons/armor, like mithral full plate of speed. For the usual price of upgrading an item of that type. So if I was some high level character with Anaconda Coils, I could upgrade them from +2 to +4 for 12,000 gp(6k crafting cost), the usual difference between a +2 and +4 enhancement bonus item. I believe this solves the most irritating problem fairly cleanly, but I otherwise think we should stick with Ioun Stones and Inscribe Magical Tattoo for wealthy characters looking for slotless or pseudo slotless solutions. |
|
|
|
Post by wizardfrog on Dec 29, 2014 20:25:53 GMT -7
I agree with zanos.
|
|
|
|
Post by shroudb on Dec 30, 2014 0:44:58 GMT -7
My biggest concern was the upgrading of pseudostat items.
Since this is addressed i think for the time being its better to just wait it out and see how it goes.
For the time being either way, apart from very old crafter's, I doubt anyone can afford a lot less.
One pro and con of the tattoo is the sharing of wealth.
Atm we have I think enough wondrous crafters that wealth is being distributed in a way that doesn't break the game. If there is only one or ytwo tattoo crafter's in the future, I fear that they will accumulate quite a big of revenue that might prove problematic later on.
|
|
|
|
Post by lainling on Jan 6, 2015 8:39:10 GMT -7
I was aiming for Tattoo Crafting with my main character as a smaller, more unique niche than Craft Wondrous, since the lack of combining magic items made it actually viable for cheap utility items that wouldn't be regularly upgraded. Things like a Circlet of Persuasion or a Ring of Sustenance.
I think 1.5x tattoos, 2.0x combined/slotless multiplier actually makes more sense. Certainly am biased, though, since that makes tattoo crafting more attractive. Simply allowing combination at 1.5 destroys tattoo crafting, and I'd like a respec on my Craft(calligraphy) to something more useful if that change is made.
Note that Transfer Tattoo does help a lot with avoiding lockout and allowing resale of tattoos.
|
|
