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Post by ajman444 on May 1, 2016 14:59:35 GMT -7
For a bit of context, here are links to the following spells that will be brought up, in case you need to see the RAW. Telekinetic ProjectileMage Hand
Telekinetic Projectile, by raw can be used to a greater effect that every other 0th level spell, and many upper level spells as well, due to the wording of the spell. The intent behind the spell is likely to throw an object at someone, and do damage to them. For example, throwing a rock off the ground at them, with the rock coming from a different angle that you are coming from, allowing for your allies to be in between you and your target, but your trajectory to not be passing through them. Caster Ally Enemy <------- Rock That said, the way the spell is worded allows for taking someone's ioun stone, or other magic item, and throwing it at anyone within 30 feet. or someone's weapon, or wand, or what ever else you may have on your person. Throw a wizard's spell component pouch? sure. Throw the fighter's magic weapon? sure. Throw the Ranger's Efficient Quiver? sure. The wording in question is such: You fling an object weighing up to 5 pounds at the target. It later in the description explicitly calls out that magical items, and weapons are valid options to throw, by saying that neither magic items, nor weapons do additional damage when they connect. Compare the effects of this 0 level spell about moving things around to the old classic, Mage Hand Target: one non-magical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lbs. Perhaps this is significant power creep, but I think we should probably nerf telekinetic projectile, especially if we intend to introduce any form of PvP to Dragon's Gate. |
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Post by Haskalah on May 1, 2016 20:06:56 GMT -7
The wording of "fling" and "throw" suggests that you have to throw it yourself and not just designate an object to be moved. The spell also doesn't specify a target of the spell outside your own carried item (Mage hand targets an item, this spell only notes throwing something at a target). It even requires a regular attack roll. I'd say the clarification is that the spell acts on something in your hand that is thrown.
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xemadus
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Post by xemadus on May 1, 2016 20:13:17 GMT -7
Right, so in a case like this you'd default to rules already present in the system. Generally speaking, you can't use telekinetic abilities on attended objects (like ioun stones) and sure, I guess you can toss a rock at someone from a different starting location... but woo? You get to deal a whole 1d6 bludgeoning with no modifiers, and it's not even a touch attack.
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Post by ajman444 on May 2, 2016 18:46:24 GMT -7
The rules are pretty clearly laid out. Mage Hand clearly states one unattended magical object of up to 5 lbs, where Telekinetic Projectile allows you to use any object (potentially attended, potentially magical, by virtue of it not saying nonmagical, or unattended, as mage hand, and several other spells state) of up to 5 lbs. and make a ranged attack with that object. It is very clear in the text that the object must have line of effect to the target, and that you have line of sight to both the target and the object.
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xemadus
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Post by xemadus on May 2, 2016 21:29:29 GMT -7
A lack of rules does not signify a new set of rules. There are very few specifics laid out in the spell Telekinetic Projectile so it would be natural to default on similar existing spells to fill in the gaps.
The spell telekinetic projectile allows you to use an object lying around as a projectile. This function is remarkably similar to mage hand, so it would be sensible to treat the spells in similar manners.
To clarify: the most this spell can do for you is allow you to ignore cover penalties to AC. If you have something pinned down behind a pillar, or have a few allies in your way, you can throw something at someone from a different location. This spell does not allow you to ignore concealment, or line of effect and this spell does not allow you to throw someone's items at someone else. That would be silly.
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Post by Haskalah on May 3, 2016 7:27:17 GMT -7
I'm still honestly convinced that the spell simply lets you throw an item from your hand that's then charged with telekinetic power. It's a cantrip and a ranged attack at 1d6 for anything you an throw (like a pebble) is good enough. The spell doesn't target something like other telekinetic spells do (I.E. Telekinesis or Mage Hand) and specifies something thrown.
Requiring the object to be in your hand or on your person makes it as useful as any other attack cantrip (that is, not very much after level 1-2).
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Post by ajman444 on May 3, 2016 8:07:09 GMT -7
Xemadus, It explicitly calls out that it may be a weapon or magical object by saying that magic items and weapons do no extra damage. By RAW, you can use this spell to throw someone else's items at someone else. To look at existing spells for guidance, Mage Hand states in the spell text that the item must be un-attended, and non-magical. If Telekinetic Projectile was written to be used as only for throwing non-magical, un-attended items, they would have said "an un-attended non-magical object weighing up to 5 lbs." in the description, not "an object weighing up to 5 lbs.", unless the spell was poorly written, in which case, having a small blurb somewhere that says "no" would be very useful to prevent abuse. Because, by RAW, this is probably the strongest cantrip in the game, and likely stronger than many high level spells. You take an item from someone without rolling versus their stats in any way, as long as they are within range. Haskalah, I think you may be mis-interpreting the spell, it says an object, and that it is flung. It's telekinetic in nature, and the telekinesis spell uses the word hurl, Haskalah, would you say then that the object in the effects telekinesis must be in your hand or on your person? Edit: Another good example is Telekinesis, which allows you to effect objects in the possession of someone else, but they have a will save, which they make on behalf of the object, and SR applied. Telekinetic projectile is better at taking someone's magic item if it is 5 lbs or less, because it takes it without SR or a save. Per this line: Saving Throw Will negates (object) or none; see text; Spell Resistance yes (object); see text Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell. Adding this line, or something like it, to telekinetic object would change the RAW of telekinetic object, to be more in line with a 0 level spell, because if you used it on a person's items, they would likely pass the DC, and retain control of the items. |
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Post by Haskalah on May 3, 2016 11:01:05 GMT -7
Telekinesis also targets an item or items, as it says in its description. Telekinetic Projectile doesn't. No-where in the spell does it say you can target something that you don't have, and as you said yourself, to suggest otherwise would mean the spell is ridiculously overpowered (IE no SR or Saves). It doesn't specify attended or unattended items because it doesn't have to, because it only lets you throw something you have at an enemy further away. Calling out the various differences between Telekinesis and Telekinetic Projectile only hurts the argument, it doesn't help it.
Further, you can't really compare spells that have telekinetic effects, and if you do, they are completely different in their descriptions, which only adds to the idea that you can't just target literally anything you want, the spell has to be used with something you have. It's also the easiest way to balance it.
And for emphasis, Mage Hand and Telekinesis target an object, Telekinetic Projectile does not, it targets the thing you want to hit.
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Post by ajman444 on May 3, 2016 11:54:24 GMT -7
so, Haskalah, you are saying that the spell telekinetic projectile allows you to, what, throw a rock? and do 1d6 instead of 1d4 for an improvised weapon??
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Post by Haskalah on May 3, 2016 12:53:52 GMT -7
Yes. Take something you have, throw it at a target, make a ranged attack roll (not touch, but without a penalty for an improvised weapon) and deal 1d6 on hit.
And you can technically throw anything you have up to 5 lbs., like a flask of alchemists fire or your handy haversack, though throwing a haversack at the enemy isn't advised.
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Zanos
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Post by Zanos on May 3, 2016 12:56:01 GMT -7
This spell is very poorly edited, and it's restrictions are unclear. I think the RAW allows you to do what AJ described, which falls well outside the power of a cantrip.
For clarification, I'm going to say that this can only be used to hurl unattended nonmagical items.
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Post by ajman444 on May 3, 2016 15:21:10 GMT -7
Sounds like a plan. Should I add a blurb on the wiki about it?
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