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Post by RenoZ on Oct 20, 2014 23:00:26 GMT -7
Alright so this debate came up because I told in chat that I updated my character sheet after the purchase of an Amulet of Natural armor from Miere/Geck.
Seafrog told me that I won't/don't get the item until 4 days in-game pass aka 1 real day, And a big debate started from that point.
So I believe that this rule is totally unreasonable. Not unreasonable to Crafters but to the receivers of those items.
1:Because someone receiving their item instantly does not break the game in some way or make someone rich.
2:Because the in-game intervals/days can not be applied in this campaign since each session is not tied to each
other for the 90% of the sessions, therefore the days that has passed in-game could be very well more or allot more than 4 days.
The differences in sessions/games each time are vast. Sometimes so vast that it feels like it's a parallel universe.
Example:
Playing a session first with Ryku, Slums being on lockdown due to some sort of infected/zombie outbreak which obviously doesn't hold only for one day in-game time, then after a few hours playing a session/game with Xemadus on completely different events/atmoshphere, slums are fine/not on lockdown and/or GM also tells us that from our previous adventure/session we did with him(even if it was 1 day before), has passed a week or few/more.
So as you can see there is no logic in this rule of a character having to wait real days to obtain his item. Whether you look at it from balance prespective or from in-game time time since in the example above it almost even seems that those sessions occur on parallel universes.(If you consider 1 real day =4 game/RP days. Cause at the same day with only some hours difference, the sessions and their events were completely different.
So I personally feel strongly against it. Seafrog at the end of our debate told me that if I feel so strongly against it/against that rule
to come write this here.I currently have no profit from receiving it instantly cause I purchased it today yet I will play a session tomorrow since it's too late to have another/no-one runs at this time and there is no issue currently for myself yet for some reason Seafrog argued with me about it even after I told him that there was not such issue anyways.
I feel though that there will be an issue when it comes down to purchasing an item between two GM's sessions that will occur on the same day so this is why I post this.
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If you want to have a rule that a character can not create more than 1 item per day to keep them in-check/not get rich or something, it sounds okay. But the whole complication of receiving an item you paid for and having to wait real day(s), seems unreasonable and pointless.
So in few words I request that you review that rule and perhaps change it towards those who receive their items.
If this rule does not apply and Seafrog was just not well-informed about it then ignore this post.
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Post by shroudb on Oct 21, 2014 0:23:52 GMT -7
Just to chime in reno to say that the 1/4 real time does currently exist from what I know.
What this means is basically that if p.e. your character leaves for a week in some quest then he is ineligible for like 2 days for play. That's the point of alternate characters.
Due to most adventures so far lasting only 1day or less this is practically hand waved since 1-2h after a 4h session he is "open" again.
I agree with this rule because it helps with immersion and makes grant things look, well, grant.
I want to believe that miscommunication between GMs is due to beta. And when dragons gate is finalized maybe the GMs can have a weekly/biweekly meeting to discuss such things like p.e. ryku telling: ok I'm gonna run an arch that will lock the slums for 1week, so the other GMs are informed.
This would help with universe continuity as well.
Imagine playing an adventure where a meteor crash into rook and opens a hole from which monsters keep spawning and your character goes down to see how to stop it. Let's say that DM X runs that.
Since gm Y knows about it before hand he has his players run to a nearby place to do their thing, while describing the valiant efforts of your other character's party and guards that try to hold on the massive monster waves that pour forth.
It gives a sense of accomplishment, and is vital if we want our characters to be able to perform some long lasting effects on the city.
But ultimately, game time and DMS not knowing what other DMS are planning are two different things.
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Zanos
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Post by Zanos on Oct 21, 2014 0:34:58 GMT -7
Taking time to receive items is part of the balancing factor of crafting. If you want the item immediately, you can pay full price for it at the shop. We want people to weigh the cost of getting their item now vs. paying full price for it.
How time flows is an entirely separate issue. Personally I think it's impolite to run a session that locks off an area for a matter of weeks, as such a thing would be more like a world event then a one off session, and more than a single DM should be involved.
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Post by RenoZ on Oct 21, 2014 0:49:05 GMT -7
Shroud I feel your input is always wooden coming from some set rule of a group or manual of some author/someone else.
I do not care what the rulebook of pathfinder states for the same reason why I don't care about D&D 3.0 or other version rule exists. Because it does not apply here or to be more precise "can not" apply here.
I believe my examples were perfectly clear of how the situation is. At least currently.
I don't know about the future/what will happen but I talk for the present. And presently such organization does not exist. I buy those things and use them presently not under the circumstances that may happen/occur in future that you describe.
Why people can't get real and think reasonably of the now and the things going on or feel so inclined to blindly follow a set rule whether that rule makes sense or not.
Right now we do not and can not sit down and count the in-game days.
Additionally as for what you say about GM's possibly doing, I don't know if they will do it or not but I am perfectly fine with how the sessions work right now. Independently from each other. This is what allows GM's to run whatever they please and feel good with as well as run it whenever they want and can.
For me that is very nice and beautiful itself because it allows flexibility of hours and what-not.
I do admit that I would like the sessions to have more depth though than being every time/session the sort of linear quest "fetch" or "kill" and allow more interaction with other players characters as well as the world but that can come in time, as you said it's beta. So that is the only thing I would want to see. Just more depth/freedom/interaction.
Oh and lastly about this ruling of the items and stuff. As I said it makes sense to limit the creator from making too much in too short time but does not make sense to limit the character who buys it with the money he earns from attending a session. That's like having a customer come to your shop and seeing something he wants to buy there and you tell him, "Oh you will pay but I can't give it to you today even if I can give it to you today" for no reason.
Because this rule exists for the whole purpose of Crafters to not make too much profit.
And since it exists only for that purpose why doesn't it work like an MMO games way? With that being said most MMO's don't limit you in that. But some of them do. For instance Archeage has a labor points system. You can craft as long as you have them. Of course I am not suggesting to have something so complicated and in-depth.
The simplified version here for the crafters would be "You can only make/sell 1 item per real day with your character" and discard the game day/time part. Simply because it does not serve any purpose and currently (not future wise) it can not apply.
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Zanos
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Post by Zanos on Oct 21, 2014 0:58:00 GMT -7
I'm not sure what's difficult to understand about "time is one of the balancing factors of crafting." Crafting takes 1 real day per 1000gp value of the item(before modifiers), so the fact that it takes a longer time to make more powerful items is part of how we are balancing it.
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Post by RenoZ on Oct 21, 2014 1:00:52 GMT -7
"Taking time to receive items is part of the balancing factor of crafting."
Can you explain to me how is that part of balancing? What do you balance exactly with that and for what purpose?
As I see it if someone buys something whether that is from shop or an individual person, he should receive it immidiatelly the same way he immidiatelly gives his GP/writes it down on his player character thread and further on his character sheet, having to upload it with new information.
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Post by RenoZ on Oct 21, 2014 1:03:50 GMT -7
I'm not sure what's difficult to understand about "time is one of the balancing factors of crafting." Crafting takes 1 real day per 1000gp value of the item(before modifiers), so the fact that it takes a longer time to make more powerful items is part of how we are balancing it. Or you apply all that to the crafter so they won't over-profit/as part of balancing but the receiver gets it instantly. If you are saying you are trying to balance the receiver of the item, in what kind of sense/logic you do that? What dramatic or broken thing will happen if someone receives his items instantly? Edit: I mean in your type/kind of unreasonable logic then the crafter of an item while his character takes that much to craft an item, can not participate in any kind of game/session. And since you apply it in real days/use real time and not in-game time which would make more sense, then the said real person is not allowed to even GM sessions/games because his in-game character is busy crafting an item and he is already making profit from that so is not allowed additional profit from participating or running games. Oh and same goes for the receiver cause he waits for his weapon/item. Why? For balancing issues obviously. Whether it makes sense or not. |
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Post by Zanos on Oct 21, 2014 1:20:23 GMT -7
There's no dramatic or broken thing that happens. You as a player need to weigh whether you would rather purchase an item instantly for 100% of it's cost or buy it from a crafter, which will take longer but cost less. If people can purchase every single item from crafters there is no purpose for any sort of other shop.
This seems like an extremely petty thing to be arguing about, and 90% of what you're saying seems to be ridiculous leaps of logic that I don't understand.
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Post by shroudb on Oct 21, 2014 1:40:22 GMT -7
Shroud I feel your input is always wooden coming from some set rule of a group or manual of some author/someone else. I do not care what the rulebook of pathfinder states for the same reason why I don't care about D&D 3.0 or other version rule exists. Because it does not apply here or to be more precise "can not" apply here. I believe my examples were perfectly clear of how the situation is. At least currently. I don't know about the future/what will happen but I talk for the present. And presently such organization does not exist. I buy those things and use them presently not under the circumstances that may happen/occur in future that you describe. Why people can't get real and think reasonably of the now and the things going on or feel so inclined to blindly follow a set rule whether that rule makes sense or not. Right now we do not and can not sit down and count the in-game days. Additionally as for what you say about GM's possibly doing, I don't know if they will do it or not but I am perfectly fine with how the sessions work right now. Independently from each other. This is what allows GM's to run whatever they please and feel good with as well as run it whenever they want and can. For me that is very nice and beautiful itself because it allows flexibility of hours and what-not. I do admit that I would like the sessions to have more depth though than being every time/session the sort of linear quest "fetch" or "kill" and allow more interaction with other players characters as well as the world but that can come in time, as you said it's beta. So that is the only thing I would want to see. Just more depth/freedom/interaction. Oh and lastly about this ruling of the items and stuff. As I said it makes sense to limit the creator from making too much in too short time but does not make sense to limit the character who buys it with the money he earns from attending a session. That's like having a customer come to your shop and seeing something he wants to buy there and you tell him, "Oh you will pay but I can't give it to you today even if I can give it to you today" for no reason. Because this rule exists for the whole purpose of Crafters to not make too much profit. And since it exists only for that purpose why doesn't it work like an MMO games way? With that being said most MMO's don't limit you in that. But some of them do. For instance Archeage has a labor points system. You can craft as long as you have them. Of course I am not suggesting to have something so complicated and in-depth. The simplified version here for the crafters would be "You can only make/sell 1 item per real day with your character" and discard the game day/time part. Simply because it does not serve any purpose and currently (not future wise) it can not apply. What? Are you serous now? I just said what is already happening and you failed to notice. I said that for immersion is awesome. I said as an rp perspective is good. As in realism is good. If anything, the wooden reaction is yours, since it comes from a strictly mechanical aspect of the game to get better numbers on some rolls. Some play to roll dice and kill stuff, some others like to immerse in their characters, some others play for their own reasons. I find that having to wait for 1day to get an item and in turn get more realism and immersion is more than fine a trade, you obviously disagree. /shrug I still don't see where you found rules-lawyering in my post though. |
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Post by Ash on Oct 21, 2014 5:12:03 GMT -7
Items take time to craft. You don't have to pay a player to request that they craft an item, only to actually purchase one. This early in the game, where most items we can afford can be made in 1-2 days, shouldn't be an issue as far as that goes. So, you either pay full price for an item now, or wait until one of the players has one in stock, and pay their price instead.
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Post by RenoZ on Oct 21, 2014 5:14:23 GMT -7
Okay obviously you are denying to see the reason and logic or maybe I don't word things well enough to understand.
You seem to dodge/not reply directly to all the facts I put/display there and try to tell me that I either want things easier or something. Shroud goes as far as to say that they already apply the 1/4 days thing which they clearly don't or we have been in totally different sessions then and beyond that tell me that I care for mechanical aspect of game to get better numbers on rolls. Who? Shroud...Something to say that only Shroud will understand or most likely just him. Donkey called the Rooster big headed.
Half if not all my sessions whether they was 2 in same day or different days used allot different time stuff as I explained/shown that in my example of two sessions that happened in one day by two different GM's.
Sick and tired of people being hypocrites really. And I am not going to continue cause then someone will turn and say that I don't appriciate GM's effort or something. But if you really want to discuss this private message me.
If you don't see reason in what I speak about, then it's not worth talking about it cause we obviously don't meet eye to eye/understand each other.
You want to keep stupid rules and make things complicated go ahead. An item not delivered instantly is not going to ruin a game/session but it really just doesn't make sense. It doesn't balance anything it will only slow down the proccess of upgrading and updating character sheets to the database. Cause I don't see what the delivering an item non-instantly is fixing/balancing really. It is not affiliated with the rule of 1 item a day and it would not affect it what-so ever.
Going to go sleep. Ni ni.
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Zanos
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Post by Zanos on Oct 21, 2014 5:25:00 GMT -7
Time in sessions and Downtime(out of session time) are handled very differently. This is to provide GMs with a decent amount of time within to run their session while not causing characters to be locked out for undue periods of time. I already explained to you that the slums being shut down should have been handled differently. Apparently we're all hypocrites somehow? I really don't understand where all this anger is coming from. I highly doubt it's because you can't get your amulet the same day you requested it.
And there is no "1-item a day" rule. It takes a minimum of 1 day to craft an item, yes, but any item with a cost of more than 1000 gp will take multiple days to craft.
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Post by RenoZ on Oct 21, 2014 13:05:22 GMT -7
I'd like to point out that there is no anger about the subject itself but when a person, for instance Shroud jumps in to defend the case of something that I personally see wrong/unreasonable (and it is not the first time he does) without taking into consideration the facts I lay down to him and he goes and simply repeats/speak about some rules or the supposedly "ideal" way to seem more realistic or something, which in my opinion it can only be done in sessions that are linked between them, by the session being always the continuation of same or next day of the previous and additionally that said person turns and tells me/accuses me of not caring about RP and caring only for stats and to squeeze out every bit of it aka Min/Maxer (which no I am not a min/maxer, in fact I am kind of too new to the systems to be like that. If I try to min/max though? Yes I do because it was in a sense forced upon me by those who DO care about stats/points and min/max in a sort of "collaboration" with the GM's that want to challenge players and care about stats/monster stats/if the players are breezing through some fight, resulting in my character being either weaker or bad at survival when he is not supposed to be as he is not a skill-monkey character), so when a person does all that while he is guilty himself of appearing to care for the mechanics and the stats, is making me very annoyed.
And that is also where the "hypocrites" goes.
There is also some other things involved with the "hypocrites" but I am not going to go there cause it's not needed and is possibly out of this topic.
Your observation of " I highly doubt it's because you can't get your amulet the same day you requested it." is in some aspect true and in some aspect false. Yes it's not a big deal to get just +1 AC to one session, it didn't even currently affect me because the next session I would do would be tomorrow(well yesterday's tomorrow). The false part is that I do care to get the item instantly despite how long the real person or his character has to pretend in real time or game time that his character is occupied doing it to not be able to craft too much/over-profit. For the mere fact that while I can see the rule being worth on crafters, I do not see it on item receivers. Them getting the item instantly is in no way some sort of profit or something that can result in rich person or something that can break in some way the game.
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Like I already said this a couple of times and still nobody replied to me to make it seem reasonable:
"I see the use of the crafting days rule purpose on crafters while I do not see it in the case of item receivers or in the RP-sense currently."
Shroud attempted it a bit at some part of his post but with false/wrong reasons.
For instance he said for the sake of RP and immersion of someone in to the game.
I mean what he said only makes me laugh.
So you depend your RP immersion on downtimes and not on the RP sessions/games themselves? Does that even make sense?
Where do you see exactly the attempt of RP immersion in the current sessions? Most of the session is combat, combat and more combat with little breaks of talk/RP or the RP left at the end of the session so those who need to go/leave can do so, making RP seem neglected.
The sessions events are all loosely tied to the "mist", like if you remove the mist part and the fact that the characters/us act we have met the others because we played in a session before with them, the sessions are completely and entirely different. There is no sense of "RP days", hardly any continuation of one event to another unless we do the sessions with the same GM. All of them are more like one shots, the only difference is that we get to keep our character progress from one shot to the other one shot and that the one shots are all loosely tied by the mist.
So what RP and RP days? What immersion?
Not to mention the time skips. I already spoke of an example, that HAS occurred of a GM running either a second session at the same day or the next day and instead of applying this "1real day=4 RP days" he begins the session by saying that 1 week or a couple of weeks has passed in-game/RP time since the last mission/thing that we did.
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Finishing with this the important part so far that nobody has managed to explain to me reasonably is why the receivers must wait.
So my view of the receivers waiting for their item, "x" days to receive it, still only serves in terms of complication of a players character sheet and it's submission.
Like...I go on and have to change the gold on my sheet and record the purchase on the forum, yet receive no item yet or even wait some days in order to do that. And then both me and the crafter(in this case GM Geck) has to remember/keep in mind after one or several days to change our character sheets with the gold changes and item change.
So it serves only as in being an annoyance, cause you have to keep it in your head/remember it and also track real days.
I mean why? Why the headache/complication for both me and the owner of the crafter's character?
This feels the same way it is/feels when a GM finishes the session and then all have to wait for his report to come at the next day because he doesn't have the time to write the report at that point.
(Only in this case it can be worse cause it can possibly take more days than 1)
It would be allot easier in both mind and character sheet updating, if the exchange was instant and the crafter had to only note down that he can not craft another item for "x" days cause he already crafted one that takes those "x" days to craft.
Note: I wish to apologize if I at some points I seem to repeat myself through the post but I type things out as I think them/they come to my mind and is hard to keep the exact track of what I wrote already, when those things that come to my mind are allot.
I hope my last sum of things in the bold characters make it easier to understand why I am opposed to this idea and in what sort of ways I am opposed to it.
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Post by shroudb on Oct 21, 2014 13:49:32 GMT -7
reno, you will have to understand that what is nice for some, is not nice for another.
i defended the system because i like the system, not out of spite for you or anything.
and about game time and immersion. now it is only 1 day. that seems trivial. but when you want to upgrade your +5sword to a +5sword of doom, and that takes close to a month, or even more for crafting, (which would be like 1 week in real time) and you just give it to a guy and the next day you have it, yeah i dont like that.
for those occasions, getting a crappy second sword and relying on it till you get your masterpiece done IS for me way more satisfing than simply going to a sheet and putting +1 more to attacks.
I have nothing against min-max, hell i do it myself too. i do dislike numbers appearing out of nowhere without real effort on my sheet though, since that seems forced.
your facts are actually your opinions. You want items made out instantly, i don't want that. it is simple as that. there are no "facts" behind it.
i wont go further since i don't want to cause any drama or such, i will even ignore all the insults flying around your post. one can read and see who started throwing them. i'm done with this thread personally.
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Zanos
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Post by Zanos on Oct 21, 2014 13:55:08 GMT -7
Finishing with this the important part so far that nobody has managed to explain to me reasonably is why the receivers must wait.
I already said several times that the time you must wait for an item to be completed is part of the incentive to buy an item for full price immediately vs requisitioning it for a reduced cost. |
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Post by RenoZ on Oct 21, 2014 14:28:32 GMT -7
Shroud while I understand "Reno, you will have to understand that what is nice for some, is not nice for another."
What you like and try to put down does not make sense. Why? Because that +5 sword/+5 sword of doom that takes a month to craft. It takes a month to craft in-game time not in real life days. And there is not current recording of in-game time/calendar of how many days exactly passed since the previous session/one shot, additionally there is this mechanism called "time skipping". Just as you time skip various things either as a player or as a GM in the sessions you could easily time skip the time that the item needs to be crafted. Why? Because it's not real man, none in real actually take a +5 sword and turn it in +5 sword of doom. It's all fantasy/in your mind.
So why must this fantasy of your mind that you want to keep and you like/you like to really wait a whole real month to get it, must apply to me and effect me?
Especially when it causes only trouble for me and the crafter to have to keep track of days and transactions for days in his mind and additionally complicate the character sheet's changes, forum posts changes and uploads of character sheets.
Now to Zanos.
What I personally know/experienced in all my gaming years and believe about crafting system:
The crafting system as a whole exists for more realism/simulation of real life in RP and to give to players a way to obtain items faster(than having to look in-game for a certain shop that might have what you want or wait until that shop has it in it's wares/available) and in lower prices than the shop ones. It helps character items/power developing as well as some players to make profit by crafting items.
And it only makes sense since you spend your crafting skill on it to be proficient. If it did not give those/such benefits then you would go for more practical uses as to craft traps or something else.
Now beyond what crafting is and what purpose it serves.
Additionally in several/many occasions/games the crafting items are ONLY obtainable through crafting and not shops.
And I don't know about the future but currently your system works kind of like this. You can obtain magical items only through Emporium and the Emporium has a small and random selection of things. So you can't buy instantly the magical item that you want. So partly the purpose of crafting is to have access instantly to the item and not wait for the Emporium to bring it/have it available for you.
Lastly even IF we discard every single thing of what I said and explained, is this:
"I already said several times that the time you must wait for an item to be completed is part of the incentive to buy an item for full price immediately vs requisitioning it for a reduced cost."
Worth of this?:
Like...I go on and have to change the gold on my sheet and record the purchase on the forum, yet receive no item yet or even wait some days in order to do that. And then both me and the crafter(in this case GM Geck) has to remember/keep in mind after one or several days to change our character sheets with the gold changes and item change.
So it serves only as in being an annoyance, cause you have to keep it in your head/remember it and also track real days.
I mean why? Why the headache/complication for both me and the owner of the crafter's character?
This feels the same way it is/feels when a GM finishes the session and then all have to wait for his report to come at the next day because he doesn't have the time to write the report at that point.
(Only in this case it can be worse cause it can possibly take more days than 1)
It would be allot easier in both mind and character sheet updating, if the exchange was instant and the crafter had to only note down that he can not craft another item for "x" days cause he already crafted one that takes those "x" days to craft.
To me it is not. And it's quite similar to the complicated paperworks some systems of Governments have making the system less efficient and more of a head ache to the citizen by having to go through allot of crap that could be cut out and make things more simple and nice.
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Zanos
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Post by Zanos on Oct 21, 2014 14:31:39 GMT -7
Your arguments have been noted.
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