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Post by Marcemallow on Jun 17, 2015 14:19:17 GMT -7
Not so much a question about the rules as a suggestion.
For the sake of clarity and making sure no one gets too deep into character creation without knowing about it, can we edit the character creation portion of the wiki to just have a link to the World Egg article under the... like, spells portion or something? And maybe add the suggestion that 'before making a character that deals with outsiders, check the world egg article'?
Additionally, could we have a portion of the article that notes specifically and in no uncertain terms what the current setting of the Egg is, so we know what is going to get messed up by it?
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Post by Ashiel on Jun 17, 2015 14:21:22 GMT -7
Better yet, can we just get that horrible thing retconned?
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Zanos
Leadership Council
No
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Posts: 684
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Post by Zanos on Jun 17, 2015 15:47:47 GMT -7
Not so much a question about the rules as a suggestion. For the sake of clarity and making sure no one gets too deep into character creation without knowing about it, can we edit the character creation portion of the wiki to just have a link to the World Egg article under the... like, spells portion or something? And maybe add the suggestion that 'before making a character that deals with outsiders, check the world egg article'? Additionally, could we have a portion of the article that notes specifically and in no uncertain terms what the current setting of the Egg is, so we know what is going to get messed up by it? As far as I'm aware only calling effects are actually affected by it, so other than planar binding/ally you shouldn't run into many problems, and classes that can cast those spells can circumvent the effects with other spells. Still, a fair enough suggestion, I will modify the spells portion of the wiki to reflect this. The original intent of the artifact was to block any outsider from reaching the plane without assistance from a non-outsider on the material, so I will need to speak with Gryph on how it functions as I believe Geckillian modified it to function differently as was originally specified, although I was not present in the more recent session. It had been blocking outsiders for more than six months real time, and was largely left to sit. Better yet, can we just get that horrible thing retconned? I imagine someone thought it was a good idea at some point, otherwise they would not have created it. You will have to expand beyond "i don't like it so take it out" if you want something actually done. I also suggest doing so in a way that is more respectful.
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Post by SaintYin on Jun 17, 2015 20:42:12 GMT -7
Pretty sure I made a wiki of that a few days back, which can be found here. On the 15th or so according to the wiki's history. The individual whom created the world egg was Gryphyx, though the one to define what it does is Geckilian. It doesn't severely impact characters apart from those that take the half-celestial/fiend template (whom would notice its effects active while researching to gain the template), and those that would use Planar Binding, which really shouldn't be used in most cases and is a single spell out of a rather large arsenal available to casters. Regardless, it's a thing that any and every GM can feasibly allow to have deactivated at any time, for any reason. It's mostly there to help explain why our plane hasn't been ran over by extraplanar entities or used as a "safe" battlefield for opposite-aligned outer planes. It'll probably get destroyed, corrupted, or removed soon enough, if only because it's a little too cheesy of an off switch to a lot of content.
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Post by Ashiel on Jun 18, 2015 7:01:29 GMT -7
Not so much a question about the rules as a suggestion. For the sake of clarity and making sure no one gets too deep into character creation without knowing about it, can we edit the character creation portion of the wiki to just have a link to the World Egg article under the... like, spells portion or something? And maybe add the suggestion that 'before making a character that deals with outsiders, check the world egg article'? Additionally, could we have a portion of the article that notes specifically and in no uncertain terms what the current setting of the Egg is, so we know what is going to get messed up by it? As far as I'm aware only calling effects are actually affected by it, so other than planar binding/ally you shouldn't run into many problems, and classes that can cast those spells can circumvent the effects with other spells. Still, a fair enough suggestion, I will modify the spells portion of the wiki to reflect this. The original intent of the artifact was to block any outsider from reaching the plane without assistance from a non-outsider on the material, so I will need to speak with Gryph on how it functions as I believe Geckillian modified it to function differently as was originally specified, although I was not present in the more recent session. It had been blocking outsiders for more than six months real time, and was largely left to sit. Better yet, can we just get that horrible thing retconned? I imagine someone thought it was a good idea at some point, otherwise they would not have created it. You will have to expand beyond "i don't like it so take it out" if you want something actually done. I also suggest doing so in a way that is more respectful. I apologize for the tone. I wasn't intending hostility, though I do in fact believe it is poorly implemented and damaging to the community as a whole. Here's a detailed explanation as to why I think the World Egg is a bad idea in the way that it is currently implemented and more importantly, suggestions for how it could be improved (to show I'm not just asking it to be fixed while being disinterested in working for it). World Egg BreakdownThe purpose of the world egg as it was described to me by Disk, was as follows. - Give an in universe reason as to why evil outsiders aren't just invading the plane en mass.
- Possibly making it a little more of a drawback for using spells like planar binding by the strongest classes (prepared spellcasters).
It was also noted that it has no effect on Native outsiders, but according to the wiki this is incorrect as it explicitly notes that natives of the plane will be locked out of the plane if they have the outsider type.
Issues With Implementation Mechanically speaking, the initial reason given to me by Disk is questionable for the following reasons. - Viability of Invasion: Standard evil outsiders (Bestiary I) lack effective ways of entering the plane due to lacking SLAs such as plane shift or gate spells. The majority of outsiders that can enter the material plane in any amount that could make them an issue are celestial beings such as Planetars or Djinn (and Djinn are supposed to be able to move between their elemental dominions and the material plane as a shtick). Most others that do have plane shift (such as Bebiliths) are restricted to themselves only and are more like predators that hunt mortals rather than invaders.
- Invasion via Items & Spells: Acquiring and using magical items to do so should be pretty impractical for fiends because they cannot craft them effectively since you cannot substitute SLAs for item creation prerequisites and you cannot ignore spell prerequisites when making spell completion and spell trigger items such as scrolls and wands which means they have to rely on having advanced fiends that are capable of casting those spells themselves (which due to the way levels/CR interacts, the most practical sub-20 fiends capable of doing something like casting gate would need to be imps or quasits who are also 17th+ level clerics or wizards).
- It Still Doesn't Work: There are quite a few extraplanar beings that it does nothing to stop, such as the CR 16+ nightwalkers who have plane shift. Because their type is not outsider, they can freely come and go as they please due to the way this mechanic was implemented. So it's mostly stopping lots of things that couldn't get into the plane anyway, lots of things that would want to preserve the plane (like angels and such), and does nothing to stop super strong life-hating badguys like Nightshades.
- It Nerfs The Wrong Guys: Frankly this does nothing to slow down clerics and wizards (and frankly it shouldn't, there are better alternatives than hamfisting it like this) as those classes have the spell resources to plane shift elsewhere, call whatever they want, plane shift them back. Most of these things are done in downtime anyway rather than in the middle of an adventure because of the amount of spells and time it takes to cast them all effectively. However, it hurts casters like Oracles and Sorcerers that have seriously limited numbers of known spells by adding yet another spell that is required for them to be able to do things like cast planar binding or planar ally effectively. It likewise hurts classes that are not full casters who get specialized access to calling such as Sacred Servant Paladins who give up some class features to get planar ally spells to have a cohort buddy.
- It Creates Issues for PCs: It seems spiteful to do this to the playerbase of the server after recently allowing Aasimar and Tiefling PCs. By using any spells that cause them to enter another plane, including teleport, shadowwalk, ethereal jaunt, plane shift, dimension door, aasimar and tieflings temporarily leave the plane and become locked out of it. This means that you just cannot play in any adventures that will involve planes, demiplanes, etc. According to Disk, you cannot even leave a rope trick or bag of holding because of the egg (and would presumably die or get ejected into the astral plane).
- Avoiding it Requires Metagaming: Nobody except those who actually have reason to know about the world egg actually do, so there's no in-character reason to not use these spells, which means that if the players in question are actually roleplaying their characters without metagaming they are basically asking to leave the campaign. If a tiefling cleric uses a scroll of plane shift, that's pretty much the end of it unless they can find a GM willing to take the time to run a game explicitly for them to get returned to the material plane somehow.
- It Affects Everyone: It's cool that you can affect the persistent world with lasting changes. However, what is not cool is making sweeping universal changes to the fundamental ways the game works that are only determined by a small number of the playerbase and out of the knowledge and hands of everyone else. Especially when it directly impacts whether or not their abilities function. This is similar to having a GM run a campaign arc and cutting the world off from the positive energy plane or something. Sure, an epic quest that could be, but it's not fair to the rest of the community who just lost their ability to cast cure spells, raise dead, heal, and channel positive energy. Y'know?
Citation for Teleportations: The following is from the Magic chapter. Formatted for emphasis.
Now, there are some splat-content books that introduce some evil outsiders that can plane shift a few times per day that could, theoretically, ferry themselves and a few other fiends across bit by bit. However, there is nothing that the world egg does to prevent this if the farrier is just some cultist or something so it's still as much of a threat as it ever was.
Solutions I would propose the following solutions for improving the world-egg situation that wouldn't wreck the game for everyone else. These suggestions are intended to compliment one-another and work in tandem to bring the egg into line with the standard d20 mechanics.
- Extraplanar, Not Outsider: The first suggestion I would make is instead of barring based on creature type (which is trivially bypassed by beings such as Nightwalkers which are not outsiders but undead) bar it based on the Extraplanar subtype. This means that native outsiders like planetouched, oni, rakshasa, and similar creatures could continue to function normally and would prevent CR 16+ nightstalkers from entering the plane on demand.
- Bar Teleportation, Not Calling: Have the egg prevent spells of the teleportation subschool of conjuration from allowing a creature into the material plane if it would cause them to gain the extraplanar subtype (as in, if they are not native to the plane) and any spell that replicates the effects of a teleportation school spell (this by proxy extends to include gate [for the planar gate usage], miracle, limited wish, wish, shadow conjuration, and any other spell that references a spell with the teleportation subschool). What this does not do is prevent natives of the material plane from using Calling subschool effects, which means that you're not cutting off the class features of PCs. Further, it still allows you to have an in-world reason as to why certain powerful outsiders aren't hopping borders without evil fiend-worshiping cults performing rituals to get them into the plane for your heroes to heroically curbstomp. Calling spells are already serving the function of requiring a native to yank you onto the plane (serving what the egg suggests plane shift for).
- Other Effects: Effects that are not connected to the conjuration school, such as a sorcerer's familiar, continue to function normally. Thus if a sorcerer with the Improved Familiar feat has an outsider familiar and it dies, they can recall it using the normal rules for their class, similar to a calling effect. Likewise, you could use the shadow walk illusion (shadow) spell without issues.
The net result is 100% effective narrative integrity, prevents a wider variety of powerful extraplanar badguys from entering the plane without assistance, doesn't randomly screw over planetouched PCs, doesn't rain on the parade of sub-tier 1 classes who already disadvantaged at performing callings compared to their tier 1 counterparts (because casting a couple of extra spells during your downtime is a non-issue for a cleric or wizard). Rule References and Citations
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Geckilian
Leadership Council
Empires Mierely require time.
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Post by Geckilian on Jun 18, 2015 11:39:56 GMT -7
Since the mechanics I put in place for the World Egg were a quick stopgap measure as it hadn't originally been explained fully, your suggestions Ashiel are most welcome. Your suggestions were effectively along the original intent, so I'm happy to have these implemented.
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Post by Ashiel on Jun 18, 2015 18:02:16 GMT -7
Since the mechanics I put in place for the World Egg were a quick stopgap measure as it hadn't originally been explained fully, your suggestions Ashiel are most welcome. Your suggestions were effectively along the original intent, so I'm happy to have these implemented. Glad to help. My own campaign actually uses fiendish invasion of the material plane as a central historical plot point so I've also dealt with the subjects of getting to and from the material, the difficulties of fiends to reach the material on their own, etc. It's actually one of the best reasons to have fiendish cults because you pretty much need devotees to ferry fiends into the world in any great quantities as they can't do it themselves, and you literally need gate spells to bring in the big boys because you cannot normally do things like call a pit fiend into the plane with Planar Binding (pit fiends are 20HD vs 18 HD limits). Next up I'd really like to challenge the summoning limit because I think it's bad for the game as well (because from what Disk has told me, the symptoms are being treated rather than the disease) but I think that's for a different thread. Especially after the conversation I had with Disk on Ventrilo, I think there are definitely greater alternatives in that venue.
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