|
|
Post by Kayse on Jun 11, 2015 21:47:04 GMT -7
By a strict reading of the Multiple Attack houserule ( link), this cap limits any attack from any source. I am wishing to confirm that spells to not avoid this cap: Does each ray from a Scorching Ray count as a separate attack? Or each missile from a Magic Missile spell count as a separate attack? Is it the attack roll or the discrete targets that count as attacks? How about spells with attack rolls targeting area of effects (such as Black Tentacles or Greater Thunderstomp)? Or spells which deal damage to large areas (such as Fireball)? If I cast Storm of Blades at CL 8, does that count as 4 attacks (by attack roll) or 1 attack (by discrete target) or some other number? (This is the spell that brought it to the fore for me, since I'm interested in it for my magus). Secondly, just to confirm in text that I can refer people toward, the extra attack from Haste is still subject to the Multiple attack rule, correct? |
|
xemadus
Leadership Council
Sure
5000
Posts: 798 
|
Post by xemadus on Jun 11, 2015 23:43:51 GMT -7
extra attack from haste is subject to the multiple attack rule.
magic missile most certainly shouldn't count, there's no attack roll. On the other hand, I think scorching ray and similar spells that have you roll attack rolls should count. AoE spells aren't attacks so they can't count, and black tentacles is just one attack that effects multiple creatures. Storm of blades most certainly should count, you can easily get something to the effect of 8-9 attacks per turn at level 8 as a magus using that spell.
|
|
|
|
Post by Haskalah on Jun 12, 2015 0:07:10 GMT -7
The balancing factor is that barring quickening cheese a Scorching Ray won't reach more than 3/turn until 11 or more anyway, and characters 10 or lower hardly have the resources for a Quicken rod. Also, most martials deal significantly more damage on hit than a spell like Storm of Blades, especially if it was nerfed to 3 swords without a damage bonus. Spells are, in my view, single attacks that may affect multiple targets or require multiple attack rolls, but they're still (at worst) "one attack", and I'd argue not even considered an attack, though I agree that anything requiring an attack roll has merits as being an "attack".
|
|
xemadus
Leadership Council
Sure
5000
Posts: 798
|
Post by xemadus on Jun 12, 2015 2:46:29 GMT -7
storm of blades does all the damage your regular weapon does. Magus's situational enchantments means a simple rapier can turn into a 15d6+ strengthx5 powerhouse of an attack.
|
|
|
|
Post by dragonus45 on Jun 12, 2015 4:06:09 GMT -7
Spells are a single attack that could affect multiple opponents seems like the most fair way to handle it. Haste is still hit by the cap because its not its own attack it just grants one to someone else.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kayse on Jun 12, 2015 4:38:26 GMT -7
The balancing factor is that barring quickening cheese a Scorching Ray won't reach more than 3/turn until 11 or more anyway, and characters 10 or lower hardly have the resources for a Quicken rod. Except that a Magus with spell combat can cast Scorching Ray /and/ full attack. The ability to cast spells and attack in the same round is the iconic Magus ability, yet puts it against the attack cap very easily. Monks with flurry have been allowed to get past the rule on Attack Caps because they have the phrase "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat" where as Magus Spell combat has the phrase "This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast." which has not in the past been taken to mean it can avoid the Attack Cap. |
|
|
|
Post by Haskalah on Jun 12, 2015 7:59:13 GMT -7
storm of blades does all the damage your regular weapon does. Magus's situational enchantments means a simple rapier can turn into a 15d6+ strengthx5 powerhouse of an attack. This seems to contradict the text of the spell, which specifically says it deals damage as a standard weapon of that type. Given that it's also a level 2 spell, I don't think magical enhancements would carry over, just the weapon type. |
|
|
|
Post by selnath on Jun 12, 2015 8:21:38 GMT -7
Throwing in my couple pennies, my interpretation was that all spells would be exempt for the simple fact that you can full attack all day, but you can't cast a spell all day because you are consuming spell slots (or charges/uses/etc.). In my mind that fundamental drawback of spells should exempt them from the multiple strike rule altogether.
|
|
|
|
Post by dragonus45 on Jun 12, 2015 11:34:35 GMT -7
The balancing factor is that barring quickening cheese a Scorching Ray won't reach more than 3/turn until 11 or more anyway, and characters 10 or lower hardly have the resources for a Quicken rod. Except that a Magus with spell combat can cast Scorching Ray /and/ full attack. The ability to cast spells and attack in the same round is the iconic Magus ability, yet puts it against the attack cap very easily. Monks with flurry have been allowed to get past the rule on Attack Caps because they have the phrase "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat" where as Magus Spell combat has the phrase "This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast." which has not in the past been taken to mean it can avoid the Attack Cap. It very well should be able to break the cap, its two weapon fighting but with a spell in the off hand instead of a weapon. |
|
|
|
Post by leary93 on Jun 12, 2015 11:36:07 GMT -7
Raises up another question: Flurry of blows and spell combat. Combinable or not?
|
|
xemadus
Leadership Council
Sure
5000
Posts: 798
|
Post by xemadus on Jun 12, 2015 11:50:45 GMT -7
is there an unarmed magus archetype? stick that with sacred fist and go mystic theurge
|
|
|
|
Post by Kayse on Jun 12, 2015 12:12:49 GMT -7
AFAIK, you can be a Kensai and select unarmed strike as your chosen weapon. It doesn't increase your unarmed attack damage size, but Magus does have access to Enlarge Person normally.
|
|
|
|
Post by leary93 on Jun 12, 2015 12:13:22 GMT -7
nvm. Sacred fist Magus sounds ok, but aren't you kind of losing out on the more attack part? You only really need 1st lvl spells for magus.
|
|
