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Post by shadowsharp on Apr 16, 2015 9:39:45 GMT -7
I was wondering if there was anyway to shorten the time it takes a mundane crafter to make a object. Magical crafters can use familiars and spells to increase their crafting time by more then double (and I think some familiars can actually double the amount of gold you can work with per day). I was just wondering because it would take almost a month (29 days to be exact) to craft a set of full plate Mithral armor which was the main reason I started taking skills in armorer. Plus I will never get any customers if a magical crafter can always craft the armor in half the time. Not sure if there is anything you can do but thought it would not hurt to ask.
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Post by Haskalah on Apr 16, 2015 13:23:36 GMT -7
My only point, as made before, is that in order to get those full benefits you'd have to take feats for crafting, invest in the skills, and use your familiar, basically becoming a full-time item maker. By comparison, crafting your armor may take more time but you can get, what, 2500 GP when all's said and done, and that's just for putting some ranks into Craft.
I definitely think a feat to make mundane crafting better would be decent, but a straight up boost might be taking things in the wrong direction (making crafting even better than any other method for gaining cash).
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Post by SaintYin on Apr 16, 2015 14:26:59 GMT -7
@haskalah
I'd like to point out that:
-Most familiars are free additions to a class. The Valet archetype is at virtually no loss, as most classes with familiars don't have a use for whatever Valet replaces anyways.
-Crafting feats aren't a punishment to take, they're the strongest legal feats that can be taken. Once you've finished with them, they can be easily retrained into something supposedly "more useful." The once-crafter will still retain the benefits from having once taken said crafting feat.
-The average player needs no more than 2 mundane items to be crafted, and then they're usually set until endgame. Craft Wondrous Item has access to ~12 slots and a few hundred slotless items, and every player needs those slots filled multiple times.
-Those that get access to crafting feats are already spellcasters, i.e. they're not underwhelming enough to justify giving them primary access to the most powerful feats.
The original post's primary issue was that magical crafters that sacrifice virtually nothing do a mundane crafter's job twice as fast at less character investment. This is a true statement, as most crafters end up being int-based spellcasters that get more skillpoints and a higher starting mod to craft checks, and the Valet applies to mundane crafting.
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Post by hobbad on Apr 17, 2015 11:13:34 GMT -7
So, in recent days I've run into a few, what I view as, problems with the current crafting system. When I use the word "crafting" I mean this as any action that produces a good for the purposes of use by that player or to be sold to another player.
Crafting should be on the same time frame as building; 4:1
Generally speaking, most items are created on as a specific order basis. While some savvy business persons could be stock piling smaller more commonly asked for items.
The current system was designed with minions in mind, spread out sesaions, and not the DG ruleset. Without being able to sell said goods to NPCs ( that's what the daily craft check for gold would be, which you would be giving up to focus on the order you have. ) the rules are more of a hindrance than a deterrent for rule abuse. Also, orders for such items aren't going to be very often as gold is still a restraint. Even though crafter's are making money, half the gold is "lost" to the ether that is materials.
It would still take time to craft items, now 20 days of IRL crafting becomes 5, a wait but not a complete waste of time. Same with training animals. Instead of 4 weeks for 4 tricks its a week. Long time when scaled but the short term isn't mind boggling long.
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Geckilian
Leadership Council
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Post by Geckilian on Apr 17, 2015 11:25:06 GMT -7
As a side note, mundane crafting has already been made 70 times faster - gp instead of sp and per day instead of per week.
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Zanos
Leadership Council
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Post by Zanos on Apr 17, 2015 11:28:13 GMT -7
Improving your skill check and raising the DC also both increase the speed of your production. If you invest in your crafting skill beyond just skill ranks you should be able to make more profit in a day (since mundane is still 50% craft 75% sell) then you can with magic item crafting.
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Post by hobbad on Apr 17, 2015 12:01:18 GMT -7
My 5 cents are kind of why have a time limit at all? You are still restricted by a finite amount of gold. With the majority of gold made being spent on NPC vendors.
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Post by frostydog on Apr 23, 2015 17:08:17 GMT -7
I will throw in my hat into the ring. I have very little knowledge of the mechanics of PF, so I am not going to offer any recommendations to improve mundane crafting. However, I do believe that mundane crafting needs to be improved.
At the moment, my character, whose crafting specialization is a shipwright, would need to work for 1.75 years in order to craft a basic galley (not accounting for any modification I would want to add). This does not seem feasible.
I apologize, I miscalculated using weeks, instead of days. It would take a 1.5 months. While this is much more feasible, I would still like to see improved mundane crafting (if crafting ships was magical, it would only take 6 days).
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Zanos
Leadership Council
No
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Post by Zanos on Apr 23, 2015 18:54:17 GMT -7
I will throw in my hat into the ring. I have very little knowledge of the mechanics of PF, so I am not going to offer any recommendations to improve mundane crafting. However, I do believe that mundane crafting needs to be improved. At the moment, my character, whose crafting specialization is a shipwright, would need to work for 1.75 years in order to craft a basic galley (not accounting for any modification I would want to add). This does not seem feasible.I apologize, I miscalculated using weeks, instead of days. It would take a 1.5 months. While this is much more feasible, I would still like to see improved mundane crafting (if crafting ships was magical, it would only take 6 days). Crafting progress scales with your check result and doesn't require feat investment. A decently level character can craft in dramatically shorter periods. With nearly no investment other than skill ranks and a non-negative int modifier a 10th level character (10 ranks +3 trained +2 MWK tools) can make a DC 25 check with a result of 25, making 25*25 = 625 gp of progress per day on a mundane item, and the profit margin for crafting and selling mundane items to player is 2.5 times that of selling magic items. So yeah, I think buffing mundane crafting to be seventy times faster than it is in the default rules is sufficient. |
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diskelemental
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Post by diskelemental on Apr 23, 2015 19:19:46 GMT -7
The profit margin for crafting and selling mundane items to player is 2.5 times that of selling magic items. The profit margins may be far higher, but the demand and the net profit per item is far lower. As has already been stated, the average player will usually only purchase two mundane items during their entire career. The most of expensive of which is generally no more than ~3k gold. |
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Post by frostydog on Apr 23, 2015 20:53:28 GMT -7
I will throw in my hat into the ring. I have very little knowledge of the mechanics of PF, so I am not going to offer any recommendations to improve mundane crafting. However, I do believe that mundane crafting needs to be improved. At the moment, my character, whose crafting specialization is a shipwright, would need to work for 1.75 years in order to craft a basic galley (not accounting for any modification I would want to add). This does not seem feasible.I apologize, I miscalculated using weeks, instead of days. It would take a 1.5 months. While this is much more feasible, I would still like to see improved mundane crafting (if crafting ships was magical, it would only take 6 days). Crafting progress scales with your check result and doesn't require feat investment. A decently level character can craft in dramatically shorter periods. With nearly no investment other than skill ranks and a non-negative int modifier a 10th level character (10 ranks +3 trained +2 MWK tools) can make a DC 25 check with a result of 25, making 25*25 = 625 gp of progress per day on a mundane item, and the profit margin for crafting and selling mundane items to player is 2.5 times that of selling magic items. So yeah, I think buffing mundane crafting to be seventy times faster than it is in the default rules is sufficient. Noted. Appreciate the feedback |
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Post by SaintYin on Apr 26, 2015 16:44:14 GMT -7
Here's how I see it:
With no investment, your magical item crafter will almost always produce mundane items faster than your mundane crafter.
Say we've got a crafter arcanist. First and foremost, they're going to be invested in Int where Fighters, Monks, or even rogues will not. For the sake of silly, let's assume the Fighter and the Arcanist have the same number of int ranks, and the Arcanist spends half as many skill points in a mundane crafting feat.
The fighter spends a good chunk of wealth for items to increase their craft check, resulting in a whopping +5 from various sources. The Arcanist spends nothing. Since Zanos mentioned level 10, let's take it from there.
Assuming they both have 20 int (in favor of the fighter), the arcanist would have a check of +13 (5+5+3), while the Fighter specifically geared has a check of +23 (10+5+3+5). Producing at their best, the Arcanist would get 23^2, or 529 gold per day. The Fighter would get 1089. But wait! The arcanist has a free Valet Familiar which doubles his result on all crafting checks and adds +2 circumstance, so the result becomes 2*(25^2), or 1250 per day.
Even with far more favorable variables, the Fighter still produces slower than the magical crafter, even though the magical crafter invested virtually nothing to do so while the Fighter crippled what little combat ability to stack intelligence.
As to the profit margin, need I remind crafters they can make ~400-1000 gold per day while crafting for someone else with little more investment beyond a retrainable feat or as part of a class feature. Even with the 50-75% split for mundane crafters, the sample shown produces about 250 gold in profit at 10th level. Magic crafters can begin reaping that 1000 per day starting at level 3.
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