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Post by SaintYin on Apr 16, 2015 2:26:35 GMT -7
This is a thread to collect opinions on templates. While the concept is still being adapted to DG, I'd like to see some community discussion on them, if only so I can better adapt them in these early phases. As a small overview, here's the current design guidelines: -Maximum of one template per character. -Once a template is selected, it cannot be removed or exchanged. -It should be a RP choice more than an optimization choice. -Do not balance a template primarily through penalties within it, as that will probably be built around/ignored. As to the options, I may not be clear in what each means: Option 1 (no change): This means rituals, stat/skill/feat gains, and anything gained by taking the template remains as it was written. This would most likely mean the price to get a template would spike into multiple hundreds of thousands of gold, to offset all the statistical bonuses from picking one up. Option 2 (nerfed upgrade): This means the power level of much within the template is pulled out. Where they previously gained immunities, they only gain a bonus to saves. stat gains become standardized between templates and anything seen as "too powerful" for a PC will be brought down before being returned. Option 3 (sidegrade): I honestly have no idea what this option entails. I'm guessing it means the negatives of selecting a template should be about the same as the positive impacts. Option 4 (no): Clear enough. This is for those that think DG shouldn't have templates at all. As to the thread itself, feel free to expand on your opinion of templates in DG, or post what kinds of templates you'd like to see in DG. I'll create a draft of any reasonable suggestions placed in this thread. Current template designs can be found here, just select the sheet with a template name. I should note that I am not DG's official template creator. Zanos is. I do not have access nor have I seen any of his template plans, and my method may not end up being the one used in DG. With that said, suggesting templates here means they'll still be placed on his radar, so even if mine don't go through, Zanos will know to make those as well. |
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Post by Haskalah on Apr 16, 2015 7:14:02 GMT -7
I feel Option 1 would just be a reward for those high-level characters who end up with disposable incomes after buying every non-epic item they could want. Granted that will still take a while, but not forever. Then again, perhaps a regular template could be taken in place of class levels (depending on any LA it has), though I suspect it would be difficult for people to give up on classes unless the template had more to offer, in which case the template may be broken.
Option 2 seems like an interesting option, but either 1 or 2 will most likely result in optimization issues unless the template is randomly determined, and such a thing could break character concepts. Flavor-wise (like gaining a skill at full ranks or some other minor benefit like a prehensile tail) would be cool, but given choice players will likely consciously or subconsciously gravitate toward the things that help them fill their niche.
Option 3, I imagine, would be like flaws and traits, or an oracle's curse with a bit less power.
I like the idea of weaker templates as a way of rewarding interesting character play and decisions. Perhaps you're not the face of the party but you've stood up and spoken out when necessary, so you can get a "Diplomat" template that gives you free Diplomacy/ranks. Some little things like that to help bolster a character concept without being some required template any good caster or archer or swordsman must have.
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Post by Gafgarion37 on Apr 16, 2015 12:27:58 GMT -7
A lot of the templates can be gained, not just created with it. I'd say nerf them somewhat, but don't allow then on character creation. For instance, I've seen rules on a process to become a demon. About 3/4ths of the way through, you get the Half-Fiend template. Another example would be becoming a Lich- Theres a prestige class pretty much focused on that. Agent of the Grave, 5 levels, at fifth level you basically get a discount to transforimng into one. The description for Half-Dragon says that most of them are the result of magical experience, and you can probably get the half-celestial template the same way you can get the half-fiend- Find a patron, do good things instead of chaotic evil things, and most likely without the sacrificing of people, but dangerous quests instead (Imagine getting shunted on your own Odyssey to do this, or something.) Pretty much anything that a PC could take (And that we would want then to take. Looking at you Mighty, Advanced, and Eternal) is meant to be applied after a while. Most inhereted templates fall under "Dire," after all.
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Post by SaintYin on Apr 16, 2015 13:54:29 GMT -7
@haskalah I like your idea: for those that don't want a physically deforming template, create simplified ones that make a character excel in some area in ways that would otherwise be hard/impossible to achieve. Instead of balancing templates when comparing them to not having a template at all, create enough template options that every character could pick something. I'll add some options (such as the diplomat) and see if they stick. Gafgarion37To assuage your concerns, my current method of implementation places a hefty gold cost to acquiring any template. Specifically, all templates will cost a bare minimum of 48,000 gold, or 20% of the expected total wealth of a 15th level character. After tallying the effects gained from a given template, the cost increases as appropriate. I doubt a low-level character will be able to acquire a template prematurely mostly because of the pricing scheme. All templates that'll be usable in DG will be assumed to be acquired in some way, the method of which is to be determined by the GMs or the PCs at that time. I'm crafting the monetary cost to unlock even having the chance to get that template applied to a character. I will note that I am trying to keep the DG template set more balanced for PC usage while keeping close to the original implementation, if possible. |
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Post by dragonus45 on Apr 16, 2015 14:56:19 GMT -7
Personally I'm ambivalent about them and feel they open up a whole can of worms, but if we had to have them I would prefer they be side grades and as unobtrusive as possible. Of course I also think there should be relatively few of them. Mechanically I think the best option would be to give some small bonuses to stats, perhaps a little bonus to saves or some resistances and leave the template mostly up to fluff more than anything else.
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diskelemental
Lich
Banned
A better world, whether you want it or not.
Posts: 781 
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Post by diskelemental on Apr 16, 2015 18:26:39 GMT -7
As I've said before, I think templates should largely be a fluff decision, not a mechanical one. Templates should represent an important moment in your character's life, one where they chose to transform into something more than they are. Therefore, templates should be hidden behind gold costs as little as possible, acquiring one shouldn't be as simple as picking something out of a catalog, then going to the template store and paying a boatload of gold. It should require blood, sweat, and tears; multiple adventures' worth of time and months of downtime.
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Post by SaintYin on Apr 16, 2015 20:54:48 GMT -7
@disk
Don't think of the document as the only barrier to acquiring a template; think of it as the ticket to get on the ride. I obviously can't calculate all the possible outcomes of what a GM believes a character should need to go through to acquire a template, only that the relative difficulty to acquiring any one template is probably going to be just as difficult as any other.
The pricing scheme is merely a way to make templates more comparable to each other, as well as to give a value that can be vetted against items to gauge if they're really worth the investment. As Haskalah has mentioned, a viable means to make templates fairer is to give options that normal characters would take. I've created some basic samples of such templates so their potential can be discussed (in specific, the Adventurer, Diplomat, and Explorer templates).
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tkul
Death Knight
Banned
Posts: 406
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Post by tkul on Apr 17, 2015 7:15:27 GMT -7
I'm in general strongly against templates for characters, for the most part the only way for players to acquire them is as capstones to classes/PrC's and those are supposed to indicate people that have gone through a long and arduous journey to make those changes. It doesn't make sense to me to let someone buy a stack of stats and a type change just because. Changing types alone is a pretty huge impact on the game since most types come with an entire subset of abilities you get beside the template in addition to giving you a slew of immunities when it comes to spells simply because your type has changed.
I agree with what Disk said, if templates were to be available at all they should be story awards not something you run down to the market and buy, but I also think we should definitely not use any of the Half-whatever templates, those are two big and too fundamental a change to just let people drop a bag of money and pick up. The simple templates like celestial/fiendish/draconic(3.5) would be mostly fine, most of them do not add a whole lot of power, with the exception of things like Advanced and Giant, and could be fun little flavor additions but again they are adding extra power even if it is minor changes.
There's also the issue that if you start throwing down the monstrous templates you automatically exclude every player that doesn't want to be monstrous from getting access to them, and they're not just cosmetics which makes that a huge problem. The "Profession" templates seem a little more reasonable but there again you're talking about buying a stack of stats just because. You already prove your mastery of your chosen profession by gaining levels in it, there's no actual reason to add special templates to give bonuses other than the fact that you want to see bigger numbers on your character sheet.
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Post by SaintYin on Apr 17, 2015 12:29:23 GMT -7
tkulWhile it sounds nice on paper, story rewards that grant any monetary or statistical increase will never happen in DG without a price tag of some sort being placed on it. It doesn't matter if a player spent level 1 to 18 pushing their character down a path to collect a Fiendish template, because the moment they're handed that template for "free," every other player in that range will complain that said character is getting better things than them. Case in point, centipede poison. As I stated before, I'm designing the ticket price to start the questline. How long it takes and what it entails is not for me to decide, but rather the GM(s). I believe far fewer players will complain if they knew the player in question had to drop 80,000 gold to get some template, especially if the gold cost is generally higher than the actual value of the stats. As to the comparison between monstrous and simple templates, I've taken steps to keep the two fair enough between each other. For example, here is the current design method: Monstrous- 1) Stats are nerfed from whatever they were to +2/+2/+2 in three predetermined stats. 2) Immunities gained from creature type are replaced with +4 bonuses to saves regarding that keyword. 3) Spell-Like Abilities are removed. 4) Special abilities are nerfed into potential usage by PCs. Simple/Profession- 1) Stats (if any are granted) are player-chosen to most accurately represent their class/training choices. 2) Special abilities are either specialized to make the player excel in that area, or generalized to always be useful. 3) More skill bonuses than those granted by the monstrous templates. Between the two, I'm keeping attribute increases the same, and monstrous templates generally cost 1.5 to 2 times as much. For minmaxing purposes, I honestly expect most players would want to select the Adventurer template crafted so far, as it's a solid mix of stats, skills, and a useful special ability at a price cheaper than the more monstrous templates. As a small conclusion, I understand your worry of power creep. The best I can say is that the pricing scheme will keep that in check. A player could save up all their wealth to initiate acquiring a template at 13-14, but by itself the template is probably worse than most items. If they wait until 15-17 so their total wealth isn't as heavily impacted, the stat increases and special abilities gained will not break the balance of the game any more than everything else acquired at those higher levels.
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