Stealth, HiPS and actions it takes

Alright, I don't think I was clear enough. I know it modifies it only for the part of, you can make a stealth check while being observed. Doesn't mean, that it is at all clear, what that "movement" is. Is a 5-foot step considered enough "movement" as movement =/ move action, as for example, under sniping, it says move action?

On the 2nd part: you are next to a creature, let's say it is large, has 10 foot reach, and you are in stealth, right next to it, unobserved. It moves away as a move action, planning to attack someone about 30 feet away. As soon as it starts moving, it provokes, you swing at it, you're stealth drops as soon as your attack has been done, because you attacked. Now, does it get to react to the part where you made an AoO, or is it assumed that it can't act quickly enough to retaliate, as it was moving in another direction.

3rd, I agree, this was actually a redundant point...

Relevant quotes (first is Being Observed stealth modifier, second is Hide in Plain Sight trick):




It appears to me that HiPS negates the need to make a bluff check to distract opponents before using the Being Observed modifications.  I'd argue it doesn't even remove/reduce the -10 penalty and necessity of movement, since one would still need to move pretty bloody fast to disappear while being observed.

Edit:  As to movement, as long as your character has cover/concealment from any given opponent, that is a valid position to stand and not be detected by the opponent.  So in other words, tremorsense and blindsight is basically HiPS's bane.  I am not of the belief a 5 foot step is considered sufficient movement for stealth, since allowing that negates the purpose of the Sniping action.

So I've only ever had Hide in Plain Sight pop up once in all the time I've been playing 3.x derivative games and the way we handled it was, yes you could make a hide check while being observed, you had to physically move from where you were to a new location to do it, you could then take your standard action but if you hadn't moved into some form of cover or concealment you were automatically detected after your standard action.

The logic we used for it was basically the assassin, in this case, basically taking advantage of the melee to duck into people's blind spots and give them a little "how do you do" with his shortsword. End result was the assassin ended up getting one attack per round but was almost always able to launch a sneak attack unless he was fighting something with tremorsense or blindsight (or was just flat out immune as this was early 3.5 and sneak attack rarely worked at his level). The downside to all this however, was that the assassin had to move to make the check which meant he provoked doing it and could get swatted while he was going into position, but tumble (3.5) helped with that.

With Pathfinder I could see this being more problematic because there's way more you can do with a single standard action, but in 3.5 it didn't cause any real balance issues, and really didn't increase the number of dice being thrown around in combat since the assassin was only making one attack per round when he was doing it.

Ok my understanding of stealth is that it requires two things. That you be unobserved and that you have cover of some sort. That's one of the reasons that creatures with dark vision fuck with stealth rolls.

Stealth is not magical. Basically what those feats do is allow your character to run fast enough or tumble as they move where the enemy loses sight of them and is not sure where they went. Normally if you had concealment / cover and had a stealth check you could shoot them with you bow but the second you've fired they now know you are there and because you're being observed you can't just hop down below the cover again and expect to surprise the foe again, they know you're there.

Same with a chameleon. Yes a  chameleon is great at blending into it's environment but if you watch it change it's color to match it's environment you can still see it because you saw it change.

Example. There is a sniper in this picture and not knowing that it would take you time to possibly see him:


However, if you saw him fire and then get back into cover you would definitely know where he is:


The feat simply allows you to restealth once you've been observed. All the other rules still apply. I would like to note that shadow dancer is an exception to the rule where they are able to use dim light as 'cover' for stealth.

"Stealth is not magical. Basically what those feats do is allow your character to run fast enough or tumble as they move where the enemy loses sight of them and is not sure where they went. Normally if you had concealment / cover and had a stealth check you could shoot them with you bow but the second you've fired they now know you are there and because you're being observed you can't just hop down below the cover again and expect to surprise the foe again, they know you're there."
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Never said it was magical. I said that the shadowdancer's ability is supernatural.

Also, what I just pointed out is that hide in plain sight allows you to Hide in plain sight . Why would an ability do any different than it's name says it does?

The ability description of hide in plain sight from the ranger says: "While in any of his favored terrains, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Stealth skill even while being observed."

Understanding linguistics here, the even while being observed part is an extention on the normal circumstances, not necessarily needed to be in the sentence. So what happens when we take it out of the sentence?

"While in any of his favored terrains, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Stealth skill. "

Clearly, this doesn't do anything now, and thus hide in plain sight does nothing, according to you. And really, if you go into cover, you are not hiding in plain sight.

On the hellcat stealth (which is technically not HiPS but still has similar wording):

Hellcat's themself have the SU to be completely invisible in bright light. In normal light they get concealment. Hellcat stealth as per the feat basically gives you a weaker version of this, requiring you to make stealth checks instead of automatically getting that good stuff. Thematically, a hellcat doesn't need to get into cover to be stealthed, and thus it seems weird to have an ability that literally nothing but take away the requirement to bluff.

As last, I want to point you out to the shadowdancer comparison again:

" shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."

She can:
1. Use stealth even while being observed
2. Hide herself without anything to actually hide behind if she is within 10 feet of dim light
3. Not hide in her own shadow.

Again, it is weird that this HiPS would work differently from HiPS from the ranger (though it is an SU, and not an EX).

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On the part: "you know where he is". Duhh, he didn't move. He got observed. Of course you know where he is. Doesn't mean you can accurrately target him. Once he moves tho, if he has any means of moving like hellcat's, knows how to move in his favored terrain, or hell, can move through shadows, he can go back into stealth again, even though you were looking at where he was, does that matter? no, because he can hide in plain sight, and you totally have no clue where he went. That is how Hide in plain sight works. RAW and RAI.




EDIT: I see you retracted, while I was typing this xD. Thanks for understanding, again, I agree on the movement part 100%, 5' feet excluded (because that is just too little movement)

nope Zanos. It's all fine, your answers were 100% clear