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Post by wizardfrog on Nov 3, 2015 16:41:31 GMT -7
Simple thing here friends, ask or give us a list of things in DG you would like to modify or change. Nothing to drastic, but the more compelling your argument, the more it will be considered.
Examples include a removal of the attack cap, banning of spells/archetypes, removal of previous bans, possible 3rd party you would like to see, etc.
Keep it civil, and speak your mind. This is just supposed to be a relaxed discussion on things you think would make DG better. Remember people have the right to disagree, and while I cannot promise that your suggestions will occur, I will promise that I and other gms will read them and discuss the ones we feel have merit.
Speak up folks, this is your chance to contribute to the growth of DG!
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Locke
Approvals
Objectively Evil
Posts: 221 
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Post by Locke on Nov 3, 2015 16:57:14 GMT -7
I think that with the advent of the Path of War classes and the subsequent insane damage increase for TWF, natural attackers and other characters who can get multiple attacks that aren't nessecarily TWF (like wild rager barbarian for example) don't really need to be as restricted anymore. While I realize that one thing being much more powerful doesn't necessarily mean everything is fine (otherwise everything that isnt a fullcaster would be legal) I do think that the attack cap has become a lot less necessary as a result of the various POW buffs.
I also don't feel that with the significant nerfs to Primal hunter that it still needs to be banned as it receives far far less evolution points now.
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Post by flypn on Nov 3, 2015 17:00:00 GMT -7
I would love to see some of the 3pp Oracle curses.
I feel like the curse is the thing, that sets the oracle apart from other classes, but I find the list of Paizo released curses quite limiting. Especially since all of them are on the same page in the SRD and you always have to check which of them are DG legal and which are not.
Sure there is always a Paizo released curse you can live with, but there so many more that fit really well into your character concept.
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Post by Openeye on Nov 11, 2015 10:32:52 GMT -7
I would like to see some attempt made to make play-by-post or some other method by which to allow characters an opportunity to interact meaningfully with the world outside of live sessions. Preferably something that can help develop the world and offer rewards to the characters involved.
For example, perhaps a character could join one of the guilds that allows him a weekly contract for his services. It could be resolved with a single encounter that could be played out via forum posts or in chat with a gm.
Alternatively, maybe a character gets the opportunity to speak with a wealthy/connected individual to try to gain influence or favor. A simple roll for success.
The rewards or the interactions do not need to be large or gamechanging. It would just help bring the game to life a bit more than simply filling in another profession check on a downtime spreadsheet.
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As a separate, but related note, I don't feel that the world or Rook is very immersive. Part of this is due to lack of interaction above. But a bigger issue is that the world itself doesn't feel very organic. I know that all kinds of crazy and important things have happened prior to me joining the game, but I (and thus my character) has no knowledge of it because there isn't a good chronicle of the events of the world. (If there is, I appologize, please direct me there immediately.)
For example, I know that there are some rather high level characters who like killed a demi-god or false-god or something. As I understand it, they have since become, more or less heros of Rook. But I have no idea who these characters are or what happened. As a citizen of Rook I feel like that would be common knowledge for the populace. Maybe not the details, but certainly the legends and the major events.
Moving forward it would be nice to hear of events from sessions which could similarly become topics of conversation around town. Again, certainly not the details, and maybe not even the facts entirely correct, but a bit of connection between the sessions and the gameworld for those not in the specific session would be appreciated.
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rocshaajenkins
Approvals
Actually, I'll just take my Fighter to go, thanks :D
Posts: 271
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Post by rocshaajenkins on Nov 23, 2015 14:53:22 GMT -7
Now that Path of War is legal, I feel that a revision of the Template system is in order.
I know this horse has probably been beaten to death, but it still stands that templates are imbalanced. Worm that Walks is far better than every other template for martials, and several of the templates add little to the combat effectiveness of a character. Even casters get little choice as to the templates they are obliged to take. Several templates are just outright weaker than others of similar styles (Earth-Infused vs. Air-Infused, for example. Flying is just better than burrowing 99% of the time). The lycanthropy and Vampire templates are just okay.
All of the non-Vampire undead templates are just outright better than every other template, not the least to do with the inherent immortality in these templates. Worm that Walks has immunity to just about everything that hurts most martials and, with Path of War out, creates a major disparity between WtW martials and non-WtW martials. I, as a player, would rather not be outright punished by choosing a template that fits my character's wants rather than picking the best option.
We don't have to be Paizo and force every character into the same build to be optimal.
I know Disk was in the early stages of revising templates before his banning and I would like to take up his work where he left off.
I understand that saying I'm going to be taking up this job doesn't mean any suggestions I make will happen.
I understand that any changes I make to templates are subject to review, dissection, and judgment.
I welcome both of these things. I want balanced and fair templates. I want characters who can express themselves as individuals and be effective in combat. I don't want templates to create insurmountable power disparities between characters.
More than anything else, I want templates to add something unique and interesting to a character. If 2 similar characters can pick 2 different templates and be on a similar power level AND have distinct advantages and disadvantages, I will be happy.
I get that this is a little long winded and ranty, but I feel strongly about templates and their impact on character development.
I can talk all I want about it, but it doesn't mean anything until I actually show some progress. Yeah, I'll be taking Disk's current progress on them and adding and altering the templates.
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Abron
GM
Heretic
Lore-Master General
Posts: 250
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Post by Abron on Nov 24, 2015 8:57:38 GMT -7
Well, when speaking about templates, I can assure you that the templates are being reworked by zanos as we speak. Though I can't say much about then right now; what I can say is that, after reviewing the changes thus far, they are shaping up to be far more balanced and unique. hopefully this addresses some of your concerns.
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rocshaajenkins
Approvals
Actually, I'll just take my Fighter to go, thanks :D
Posts: 271
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Post by rocshaajenkins on Nov 24, 2015 10:16:00 GMT -7
Alright. I have trust that Zanos can make some really cool and interesting templates and create ones that are balanced and unique-ish.
My last input on this issue: A clear role should be established for each template/sub-template
(ex: Half-Celestial/Lycanthrope Wereboar). It's good to have generalistic utility templates as well as more build-specific ones. Though, I believe that making a template that disincentivizes using one's normal means of attack is counter-productive, like giving one template the ability to apply a poison or debuff with their natural attacks whereas another template can apply theirs to all of their attacks.
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Zanos
Leadership Council
No
how did i get here i am not good with computer
Posts: 684
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Post by Zanos on Dec 2, 2015 18:46:16 GMT -7
Alright. I have trust that Zanos can make some really cool and interesting templates and create ones that are balanced and unique-ish. My last input on this issue: A clear role should be established for each template/sub-template (ex: Half-Celestial/Lycanthrope Wereboar). It's good to have generalistic utility templates as well as more build-specific ones. Though, I believe that making a template that disincentivizes using one's normal means of attack is counter-productive, like giving one template the ability to apply a poison or debuff with their natural attacks whereas another template can apply theirs to all of their attacks. You overestimate my power. Here's a commentable link to what I have done, which is uh...something. |
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Post by dragonus45 on Dec 2, 2015 19:13:51 GMT -7
I'm still hitting the problem of templates being powerful enough to be absolutely mandatory, in both versions I have seen, meaning a character who doesn't want to take a template is simply going to get bent over at higher levels.
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Zanos
Leadership Council
No
how did i get here i am not good with computer
Posts: 684
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Post by Zanos on Dec 2, 2015 19:16:18 GMT -7
My problem(as I mentioned in IRC), is that the acquisition mechanic has been kind of bent over backwards so the opportunity cost of acquiring one is too small.
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Post by dragonus45 on Dec 2, 2015 19:21:12 GMT -7
Yea, that is a better way of wording my complaint. But really I don't see any opportunity cost being enough without being crippling in its own right. You would have to eat an entire characters worth of WBL to equal out what some of them can give so gold is out, and can be made back with crafting anyways and time lost just means that you wait a little longer IRL to get you cool 20th level stuff. The only way to fix that would be to make templates something like a 3 or 5 level prestige class, but... actually that's an idea that might work. I'll put some thought into it but I feel its an idea that will never go over here.
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rocshaajenkins
Approvals
Actually, I'll just take my Fighter to go, thanks :D
Posts: 271
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Post by rocshaajenkins on Dec 3, 2015 0:16:26 GMT -7
I like the idea of templates. The idea that I can invest a large sum of money and several sessions to acquire some unique ("unique") modification to my character that can add some overall utility or provide tools that make more focused builds better while not de-railing my characters leveling is pretty cool.
Clearly, the templates are under-priced. They are. They make a character much more powerful than they were pre-template. That said, forcing players to check a box next to one of these builds that they may not like because it changes their character at its core in order to not fall behind off a power cliff is... unhealthy, to say the least.
Templates, as they are, exist in a state of gross unbalance, blah blah blah. We know this. Templates are a point of contention. Some have to go up and/or other have to go down in power level. I firmly believe that a system of templates such as this requires an overall focus, a single goal that each template should accomplish. This statement should be broad enough to encompass all types of characters who would want a template, but it should provide specifics on power level and the intent of templates. Like a mission statement.
While I feel that creating Prestige Classes in place of templates is an interesting idea, how does this affect character builds? Should these PrCs have an option for either increasing caster level and advancing casting as normal or providing full BAB? Should there be PrCs specifically meant for a wide variety of specific character builds, such as LE Wizard and NG Sorcerer, CG Rogue and CE TWF Stalker, Paladin, Kineticist, Grapple builds, Archer builds, 2hand builds, etc?
Of course, should this prove to be a viable and interesting alternative, these questions can be answered at that time.
Several bulleted options to fix this include:
1 Balancing templates up to the level of the most powerful templates, then adding a more diverse suite of templates at this power level
2 Balancing templates down to the level of the weakest templates, then adding a more diverse suite of templates at this power level.
3 Balancing templates around the power level of the more powerful but fair templates, then adding more templates.
4 Doing idea 2 or 3 and implementing a template tier system.
5 Replacing templates with PrCs for many different build types. Extend level cap exclusively for PrCs?
6 Leaving templates as is or minor re-balancing. Perhaps adding templates.
7 Remove templates.
Just a handful of options. I'm aware I haven't really provided much as far as specifics with templates, but the more broad topic concerning whether templates or some other option should be pursued should be addressed.
Again, wall of text. Sorry XD
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Post by dragonus45 on Dec 3, 2015 2:00:07 GMT -7
Prestige classes at their best are highly specific, they exist to do a single thing not make the class going into them generally better. For the best prestige classes you want it to be something that a person builds towards as a goal, not just something they pick up for the hell of it. The Evangelist is a good example of an awful prestige class like that. In this case that thing would be to gradually change your character into something else, and some like the litch clearly should raise caster levels but most probably wouldn't all that much. At the very least anything giving bonuses like we are seeing now would have to lose some casting and the class capstone to compensate. That said this idea is for if we want to go with option 1 and balance everything up. If instead we decided we wanted to balance the templates down than something as extreme as taking levels out of your class would not be needed. Actually capstones bring up another though. Some archetypes, and sorcerer bloodlines now that I think about it, do a lot to change your type. The empyreal knight would be my prime example, by the end of that archetypes progression you are essentially an angel and I think that what you get from it is rather good, outside of it taking some of the better paladin abilities to get into so its kind of trash from that perspective but it might be a good baseline for working out what to let templates give characters. Now we cant go and just start yanking out class abilities like we would with a real archetype, I wonder if we couldn't work out a mix between that and scaling magic items. At level 12, or perhaps earlier in this system since the benefits are spread out over so much time, you go through the rigmarole of researching your template which them gives you bonuses based on your hit die. It would start with the basic resistances and things like that before eventually giving you some nifty shit but instead of having the cost be a small pittance of your wbl and some time you instead just reduce all your gold intake, from both crafting and rewards, by 15% or so as if you had gotten a scaling item. The math honestly wouldn't be that bad, you the player would just have to be sure to post up in the session report thread that you had a template and what your adjusted gold gain was that way the gm just has to put it up and you handle the math on your own.
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rocshaajenkins
Approvals
Actually, I'll just take my Fighter to go, thanks :D
Posts: 271
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Post by rocshaajenkins on Dec 3, 2015 2:29:02 GMT -7
I feel like giving players the ability to gain their template over time while not limiting their ability in their own build would be a pretty good idea. The main issue I see with it is players having to keep track of session reward reductions and shit, but that's more or less a non-issue since players have to track session rewards from level 1 and it takes several months of play and many sessions to hit level 12, let alone get a template as they are now. Even the math issue can be solved with a simple question in IRC. I know I'd be more than willing to help some of the mathematically challenged folks who need help with this. I agree that a Prestige Class should be highly specific. Like Living Monolith. If you don't benefit from Enlarge Person as a swift action, you don't pursue the class (I almost wanted to take the Ib stone over the Ka stone for more and better extracts, but free toughness and full BAB is better  ). I'm not very familiar with any other PrCs (an artifact of me liking Living Monolith so much and not needing any other classes). What I do know is that a majority of them either A) only work for fringe gimmick builds, like mine or B) fail to improve in any meaningful way on the character and only provide a mediocre gimmick. Since we, as a community, have the ability to collaborate to an extent on these additions/changes to Dragonsgate, we can use our minds and frames of reference and experiences together to produce a good quality answer to the question "What do we do about the current templates?". Also, if it turns into just making extra prestige classes players can opt into taking, I don't necessarily agree with that idea on its face. I could probably be convinced, but what templates attempt to provide is a unique boost in power to the character that does not tax the character's current build. Perhaps this is a better way to go if the only aim is to make templates not a requirement for high level play. I personally feel that instituting a set of Prestige Classes is simply the same as removing templates and defeats the idea of re-working them. Removing templates is essentially saying "Hey, if you have this build, why not take this class instead of your normal class?" instead of "Hey, if you have this build, let this template be a supplement to it." I'd rather any imposition by Dragonsgate on the direction of character builds be purely supplemental and add to the power level of a character, rather than simply provide an alternate route of spending XP toward level 20. Don't get me wrong. If done well and done thoroughly, custom DG PrCs could open up many strong possibilities for character build in the future. If they meet the main goal of a PrC, which as you say is to create a strong alternative route of character advancement for a focused build, they could just be more fair than templates are. It would also mean that characters could all be balanced and varied without having to sink any time or gold into creating your specific build with your specific bonuses. Each template or custom PrCs needs to be done well. It doesn't matter which route the community decides to move forward with, the different choices players get need to be done well. What this means is up to the committee that decides what content is and is not healthy for players in DG. I hope they listen to the ideas and opinions of the public. |
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Post by dragonus45 on Dec 4, 2015 0:52:28 GMT -7
So me and Rocshaa have been talking and we would like to introduce our thoughts on a new template system. In the new system you would enter the template at level 10 earliest paying the cost to enter it as if it were a scaling item at the level and from then on you pay as per the scaling item system. We have ideas put up here, anyone can contribute. Just put your thoughts into one of the lines. |
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Zanos
Leadership Council
No
how did i get here i am not good with computer
Posts: 684
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Post by Zanos on Dec 4, 2015 2:50:28 GMT -7
I'll comment on it when there's more to comment on. I like the core of the idea, though.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2015 3:34:07 GMT -7
I'd very much prefer it if templates were an end-game ish sort of advancement for character development. From what i've read currently on gaining templates it just seems way too easy and people grab it for a power spike rather than having legitimate reasons for taking them. I'd definitely see more potential with this; a better goal to aim for that makes people serious about sacrificing their experience and gold to obtain, it'll make you think really hard about it.
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Post by Openeye on Dec 4, 2015 6:45:23 GMT -7
My only issue with the "endgame" requirements. When is the last time DG has had a level 18 session? How about 10 level 18 sessions which are needed for advancement? Does anybody even have 1.9 million experience (the amount you now require)? Can it be done without GM awards given how few high level games there are?
Plus at that point in the game what are you doing in terms of advancement? Congrats you made the already god-powered PC into a further more powerful god?
I think with the templates you need to ask yourself what are you trying to add to the game. Are you trying to create cool new capstone abilities that players can someday hope to attain or are you trying to create a meaningful game addition that adds flavor to the characters. If it is the second, and I think it is, then it needs to come online at a point where it is actually meaningful to playing the character.
Maybe tier it out so you enter the template at somewhere around 8-12 and get a few marginal bonuses, then every 2-3 levels you can continue to develop you template skills. This elimiates the issue of a massive power boost at a level inappropriate time. Then you can also spread the cost out so a player doesn't have to stop complete progression of their own character while pursuing it.
For example, I will take the Shadow Template (a better, but not best template) which I am familiar with because I was going to pursue with Urist:
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Level 8: Character begins to take on the traits of a shadow.
Stealth becomes class skill, +5 move speed, Gets Darkvision 60ft useable for 15 mins per day (in 1 min increments); if already has darkvision, then gets See in Darkness 15 mins per day.
Level 10: Character begins to better understand and control the shadow.
Acrobatics and Knowledge(Planes) become class skills, Hide in Shadow(Su), but must be in dim light.
Level 12: Character really starts to pursue and train, slowly transforming themselves into a shadow.
+5 Speed (Now +10 total), Darkvision to 60 ft (or See in Darkness if they already have it), DR 2/Silver, Resist Cold/Acid 5, Deeper Darkness and Dust of Twilight 1/day.
Level 14: Still pursing and perfecting, begins truly manifesting physically traits of the shadow.
DR 5/Silver, Resist Cold/Acid 10, Deeper Darkness and Dust of Twilight 2/day, All get See in Darkness, Hide in Shadows as described, +2 Dex, +2 Cha, Shadow Restoration Fast Healing 2, Sap Strength and Penetrating Strike as described.
Level 16: Perfection in shadow.
DR 10/ Silver, and Shadow Restoration Fast Healing 10.
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Under this type of system, the player would need to put 2 sessions at each level point (10 sessions total over all levels) to further progress of development. If they wanted to stop at any point they could. Further if they didn't want to pursue it until later, then they can either pay in the same number of sessions (this is a penalty) or alternatively equivalent XP worth of sessions (no penalty). For example, if I waited until level 12 to start, I could pay 6 level 12 sessions. The total costs are higher but that's to simulate the penalty of trying to rush the training. If the DG gods prefer, we can just calculate it out into XP (likely around 3-4 sessions) and pay that.
The nice thing about this is that the abilities can come online at a point where the character is still developing and thus become a part of the character itself. A player can actually use them and have fun with them in many sessions moving forward. None of the abilities are really game changing until level 12-16 range at which point a significant investment has already been made. Plus abilities that were so overpowering at level 12 (like in the example, Fast Healing 10) can be built up for less overpowering effects or pushed off entirely to the later levels where they are more appropriate (Did both giving a much weaker effect at 14 and full power at 16). But I don't lose the other useful (but less game breaking) abilities of the template since I can get them at the lower levels.
At the end of the day I would like the templates to give more lessor abilities that can actually be used in the levels that actually get play as opposed to cool powerful abilities that I may never get strong enough to use. If I'm going to take a template, then I think that it should be something that becomes an important part of character development, not an afterthought when my character is already a demi-god.
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Post by Openeye on Dec 4, 2015 6:56:50 GMT -7
Another thing:
As for balance in DG, what is it? How do we even calculate it?
We are already clearly well above Pathfinder standards. We have a midlevel crafter who has over a million wealth. I'm not even sure how/if Miere the Mantis can be killed. Hell, I'm a barely level 2 with 2700 wealth (almost 3x WBL).
When you say balanced what do you even mean? Vs Pathfinder or vs each-other?
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Post by dragonus45 on Dec 4, 2015 8:08:07 GMT -7
I think with the templates you need to ask yourself what are you trying to add to the game. Are you trying to create cool new capstone abilities that players can someday hope to attain or are you trying to create a meaningful game addition that adds flavor to the characters. If it is the second, and I think it is, then it needs to come online at a point where it is actually meaningful to playing the character. From a design perspective I think the best place for a template should be the latter. It should be something flavorful to the character that also gives them some abilities that tie in with that flavor. Maybe tier it out so you enter the template at somewhere around 8-12 and get a few marginal bonuses, then every 2-3 levels you can continue to develop you template skills. This elimiates the issue of a massive power boost at a level inappropriate time. Then you can also spread the That is actually a lot like of what we were thinking with the system me and rocshaa were talking on, although we had it starting at ten if you think 8 is a better idea feel free tinker with the docs I put up they are set up so anyone can present an idea. Also your shadow touched template fits with it really well do you mind if I move it over or would you move it over yourself? Under this type of system, the player would need to put 2 sessions at each level point (10 sessions total over all levels) to further progress of development. If they wanted to stop at any point they could. Further if they didn't want to pursue it until later, then they can either pay in the same number of sessions (this is a penalty) or alternatively equivalent XP worth of sessions (no penalty). For example, if I waited until level 12 to start, I could pay 6 level 12 sessions. The total costs are higher but that's to simulate the penalty of trying to rush the training. If the DG gods prefer, we can just calculate it out into XP (likely around 3-4 sessions) and pay that. The thing is, I don't feel like any amount of just filler sessions is enough opportunity cost. At the end of the day that's just a little bit of time lost, and really you have all the time in the world mechanically speaking to eventually reach 20. I think the cost needs to be tied into more mechanically finite resources such as gold. At the end of the day I would like the templates to give more lessor abilities that can actually be used in the levels that actually get play as opposed to cool powerful abilities that I may never get strong enough to use. If I'm going to take a template, then I think that it should be something that becomes an important part of character development, not an afterthought when my character is already a demi-god. I think templates should perhaps give something in the realm of a mix of utility and some of the basic defenses that are iconic to the creature type, like how dragons are immune to sleep effects and undead are immune to cold. Also on the subject of character development, I feel that the idea should not be to create a template for every character type. Warping yourself to the point your character actually changes the mechanical type of being they are should be something that a character wants, and I don't feel like that would be a super common in character motivation, outside of the fact that its kind of awesome from our perspective as players. Another thing: As for balance in DG, what is it? How do we even calculate it? We are already clearly well above Pathfinder standards. We have a midlevel crafter who has over a million wealth. I'm not even sure how/if Miere the Mantis can be killed. Hell, I'm a barely level 2 with 2700 wealth (almost 3x WBL). When you say balanced what do you even mean? Vs Pathfinder or vs each-other? Well Drakovan is the nightmare of the crafting system presuming there isn't someone else with that kind of cash floating about. Unfortunately there is nothing we can do to stop that kind of sit and craft character build at the moment but fortunately no one has found it an appealing idea so far outside of xem. As for Miere, well. I have been trying to work on a high level session so those guys can finally play and really all you need to do is pretend is a few CR higher than he would be and things start to work out. Also, how did you hit 3x WBL? I would be interesting in seeing how common it is, I know with my level 12 I had the problem where I was actually running behind in wealth for the longest time. Anyways for the grander question of balance I balances is an internal question and when I use the term I'm generally referring to it as such. For context with templates I mean it as a character with a template should be roughly even with a character of similar build and class without one, if perhaps now having some nifty different utility tricks or perhaps a nice boost to a specific area of the character build they wanted to enhance. [/quote] |
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Post by Openeye on Dec 4, 2015 11:32:16 GMT -7
You're welcome to do whatever with it. I just threw it out there as an idea and it wasn't particularly well thought out. I had only glanced at your first page where you laid out the Tier 2 stuff. I didn't get a chance to go through each template and I assumed they were what the first page related to. From what I read, I thought you were aiming to make templates late game additions. I understand what you mean now and we are both on the same page. My apologies. In terms of getting abilities, the sooner the better. A template should fundamentally change the character and the sooner it has effects, the longer the character is tied to it. In terms of cost, make it a gold cost tied to sessions too. Maybe you only get 1/2 wealth, because the other goes into temple donations, god sacrifices, casting components, training costs, etc. No issue with gold costs either. Though I wouldn't consider Gold any more a finite resource than XP. Both are only limited to time and sessions. Heck XP at least has the restriction of only being possible via sessions, gold can be made out of nothing with downtime. In terms of not making a template for everyone, then you need a balancing alternative to templates for those who wouldn't otherwise take them. Right now templates are too good to pass up -- mechanically speaking. Your gimping yourself to avoid them. Taking a template is a like stacking levels, the template characters get a bonus 2-3 levels (or more) worth of abilities. At the end, their level 20 character will have a lot more than a level 20 character that didn't take a template. Now some of that balance can be the lost XP/Gold which will help bridge the gap, but they are both low cost resources. It would also make sense to offer something else to maybe balance the scales. Perhaps players over level 10-12 who don't take a template can get and extra 2 class skills (would still need to spend skill points), a bonus +2 ability, and an extra feat all for free. Its not a huge difference, but it could help any build be better at what they do and represent their continued single-handed focus manifesting as a more skilled character. Like you said there needs to be a lost opportunity cost and no amount of gold or XP is going to do it imo. I agree, those are outlying cases, but I would be surprised if any of them are the last. I can't speak to others and their WBL, but for me about 1/3 of it is downtime profession checks, the other are from sessions (1-3) that were above my skill and I got above my level rewards for, one of which was also a long session for even more bonus. Additionally, I have taken care to not spend my cash unless I get good value (like 70% from buying from a crafter) so am able to stretch that cash even further. At this point, my level 2 character has 2 wands (1500 value), armor and weapons (~500-750 value), misc goodies (~750+ value), and another ~500 in gold. All told if I were to purchase everything I have at full value, I would be around 3k-3.5k cost. All of my purchases can be reviewed at my thread including all my session and downtime activities which I track on a google spreadsheet. dragonsgate.boards.net/thread/2415/urist-mcdorf-dwarf-urban-bloodrager |
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Zanos
Leadership Council
No
how did i get here i am not good with computer
Posts: 684
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Post by Zanos on Dec 4, 2015 14:04:49 GMT -7
I wouldn't use Drakovan as an example. I actually audited Xems tracking shit for him and pointed out a couple of inconsistencies. Last I checked he was retiring him.
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Post by dragonus45 on Dec 5, 2015 0:40:27 GMT -7
Openeye, I get that the templates that we are thinking on are clear mechanical upgrades, really for the current opportunity cost that would be true for pretty much anything. But what if you were paying 15% of your gold for the rest of your career. To little, to much? How about 30 or 25. I think there is a point where that breaks even and templates become a choice you make for flavor.
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rocshaajenkins
Approvals
Actually, I'll just take my Fighter to go, thanks :D
Posts: 271
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Post by rocshaajenkins on Dec 6, 2015 1:00:39 GMT -7
I think some important things to keep in mind for gold is: what will a non-templated character spend the 15%/30% of their gold they keep from each session by not taking a template?
Should the template be worth the same amount or less at each level? More?
(I personally feel a template should be worth less than the gold you lose. You can stack a template with the shit you buy with gold, whereas non-templates can only buy those items, but more quickly)
At what point does/should the gold loss stop mattering? Level 20? 15? Somewhere between?
Why should a character choose their full gold value as opposed to permanent buffs?
I am taking a purely power-gamer stance with this. I want the templates to be truly optional. If we can't figure out a way to make the templates balance out with WBL, then they should have weaknesses/downside. Of course, this is a last resort type of thing. With that said, it should never be taken off the table as long as templates being actually optional and balanced compared to a normal DG character of the same level is on the table.
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xemadus
Leadership Council
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Post by xemadus on Dec 6, 2015 9:05:47 GMT -7
What will make the templates optional is meaningful choice. Currently, the only choice there is when it comes to taking the templates at level 12 is whether or not you want to delay yourself by 240,000 to 480,000 exp, which comes out to 1-2 levels.
I kinda like the prestige class idea; it makes for a good balance between give and take.
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). I'm not very familiar with any other PrCs (an artifact of me liking Living Monolith so much and not needing any other classes). What I do know is that a majority of them either A) only work for fringe gimmick builds, like mine or B) fail to improve in any meaningful way on the character and only provide a mediocre gimmick.