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Post by Gryphyx on Jan 30, 2015 15:56:42 GMT -7
Some of you are aware that we’ve been working on possible balance changes to the pathfinder system. The changes we’re discussing are quite extensive and have a big impact on some of the major balance issues we’re seeing. To understand why we’re looking at these changes you need to understand the problems with Pathfinder that we’ve identified. Specifically: Low Levels - Natural attacks make martials cry and are overpowered.
- Archers are really, really, strong. Much more so if you’re a Zen Archer.
- Blasters being, or dipping in, Crossblooded Sorcerer, is ridiculous.
While the silliness mostly goes away by mid game, its just stupid for early levels. - Some classes, like rogue and baseline monk simply don’t have a viable roll, in or out .of combat, unless they’re built very gimmicky.
- Crafting is broken and pretty much stays broken. We’ve gone through and calculated the wealth for many of our crafters and compared it to none crafters. We’re seeing non-crafters be on track with WBL. We’re seeing crafters at somewhere between +50% to +250%. This is obscene.
Mid Levels - If you use animal companions, you’re suboptimal if you’re not using a cat, allosaurus, or spinosaurus.
- The full caster disparity starts to rear its ugly head.
- Eidolons move from OP to outright stupid.
High Levels - Tell me again why I’m not a full caster?
We’ve put a lot of work into figuring out ways to address these problems and feel like we’ve come up with good changes that go a long way in addressing many of these. The major exception is the martial / full caster disparity in mid to late game. We’re coming up blank on this (see discussion points).
Some of these changes are going to cause emotional responses. Please do not respond emotionally. In fact, try your best to not decide how you feel about these changes until you’ve actually given it some thought and considered how it will affect the community as a whole. We really do want to hear what you have to say, and this is in fact why we’re putting this up for public comment. But when people blurt out an opinion without thinking it through, they tend to defend that opinion blindly regardless of what discussion follows.
Also, we do want to hear your general thoughts and ideas. However, we also have some specific things we want help on. Once you’ve read through the proposed changes, please take a look at the specific discussion points we’ve prepared and if you can assist in those areas that would be fantastic.
Finally, these changes may nerf, or even outright break, some existing characters. It has always been our policy that nobody should have sunk time into a now worthless character because we changed rules. As has always been the case, any character directly affected by these changes may rebuild their character at no cost. In extreme cases, you may make an entirely different and unrelated character, and apply all wealth and experience your character has earned to that new character. You may not however, apply this to an existing character.
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Post by Gryphyx on Jan 30, 2015 15:56:46 GMT -7
Crafting
- Magic Item Crafting costs increased to 80% of base costs.
- Minimum magic item sell price increased to 90% of base cost.
Multiple Attacks
Hard cap on the number of attacks allowed by tier. - Tier 1: 1-5, no more than two attacks from all combined sources*
- Tier 2: 6-10, no more than three attacks from all combined sources*
- Tier 3: 11+, no limit on attacks
* There are exceptions to this limit. Spells such as haste, divine power, other similar spells, may exceed this cap by a single extra attack. Non-spell methods of increasing attack may also be used to increase attacks by a single attack. Allowed Non-spell methods include Improved Two Weapon fighting and a monk spending a ki point. Combat Minions
It will be obvious why we’re making some of these changes. Others, not so much. In particular, the improvements to animal companions may be a head scratcher since animal companion classes really don’t need any help and are already some of the strong(est/er) options. These changes are not supposed to make theses classes stronger. They are intended to give them more options so that we don’t end up with all of our hunters and druids with big cats. Big Cats become the benchmark and anything that does more damage than them, should be straight dmg without extra things like grab and pounce. - Defined as Summons, Eidolons, Animal Companions, Animated Dead, Constructs, and any creature, bing, entity or object that acts independently and therefore breaks action economy.
- No character may have more than two of these with them while adventuring.
- Pounce becomes a 2 point evolution
- Animal companion all receive a size increase to large at level 7 if they don’t currently get it, including the stat changes of +8 str -2 dex +4 con. In most cases, this is on top of the increase to medium already received by some at L4. There are exceptions.
- For Bear, Badger, Panda, and Spinosaurus the L7 increase to large changes stats by +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con
- Deinonychus breaks the established pattern of medium bump at L4 and large bump at L7 and so requires a bit more tweaking. The Deinonychus will will get its medium bump at 4 instead of the normal L7. However, it will not receive the pounce ability until L7. It will also get a large bump at L7, but at the modified stat increase of +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con.
- As per the normal rules, a player may choose to forgo this bonus size increase and instead receive a straight +2str and +2con.
- Deinonychus breaks the established pattern of medium bump at L4 and large bump at L7 and so requires a bit more tweaking. The Deinonychus will will get its medium bump at 4 instead of the normal L7. However, it will not receive the pounce ability until L7. It will also get a large bump at L7, but at the modified stat increase of +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con.
* Note that the Spinosaurus already gets a large bump at L7 so this is just a straight nerf to published material. Classes & Archetypes
Rogues & Monks - We are waiting for Pathfinder Unchained, which is supposedly going to address these classes, before we turn our attention to buffing them.
Cross-Blooded - Bonus damage per die from different bloodlines do not stack. For example, a Dragon/Orc bloodline blaster would get 1 dmg per die instead of 2.
- The number of damage dice effected by bloodline or racial feature scales with Sorcerer level. If you have only one level of sorcerer, you get that bonus to no more than one die. If you have four levels of Sorcerer, you get the bonus damage to no more than four dice.
Primal Hunter
- Banned for now. The reason for this isn't straight forward. With the attack limit, they might be fine. However, we’re concerned that all the changes to animal companions will allow for some funky shit that we aren’t prepared to deal with. Even besides this, it is likely that the primal hunter needed some looking at even without these changes.
Prepared Casters and Alchemists - May not share spells or recipes. If other prepared casters call spells by a different name, this applies to them too.
Zen Archers - May not spend a ki point to add an extra flurry attack until L11.
Traits & Feats - Any metamagic level adjustment reducing trait is banned
- All magic item crafting feats are adjusted to create items at 80% of base cost. Minimum sell price is increased to 90% base cost.
- Divine Protection is Banned.
Items - Weapon Balms: When applied to ammo, only 4 pieces of ammunition are affected instead of the listed 10
- Lyre of Building: Does not effect cost or needed materials. Only build time.
Conditions - Daze is considered a mind affecting condition
Retraining - Favored Class bonuses - You may retrain favored class bonuses according to the following cost in days: Three days plus one day per level of favored class you will be retraining. For example, if you are 6th level and wish to retrain two of your levels worth of favored class bonus, it would take you five days of retraining. With the way our downtime system works, this amounts to a three day lockout, as with any other five day retraining.
Third Party Balancing Options - Path of War - to be allowed (although still must be unlocked through events)
- Dreamscarred Psionics - to be allowed (although still must be unlocked through events)
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Post by Gryphyx on Jan 30, 2015 15:56:58 GMT -7
Discussion Points- We gave unlimited attacks back at 11 because thats when normal martials get a third attack and when casters go nuclear. Does this sounds right?
- Are there animal companions we missed that might break with these new rules?
- Should crafting just be eliminated instead of having its benefit reduced severely?
- Is the weapon balm nerf for ammo too much?
- Are there items other than weapon balms that become silly when applied to 10 pieces of ammo?
- Are there other items or feats that add too much power back to crafting?
- Is making Daze a mind affecting condition enough? Or does it need outright banning? Consider the ban on metamagic reducing traits.
- These changes do almost nothing to address the martial caster disparity. We are looking at the Dreamscarred Press material as a way to provide options that bridge this gap. Do you have ideas for changes that might address this issue? Particularly at the mid-high and high levels? As it stands now the only thing we can think of is to go through L6+ spells one by one and identify/fix crazy spells. If we need to do it we will but it seems like a lot of work.
- How do you feel about the Dreamscarred Path of War stuff?
Are there certain things that are too strong. Should charge maneuvers work with pounce? What about the feats? Straight up dex to damage? etc...? - How do you feel about the Dreamscarred Psionic rules?
What gets silly? - Are there other, high quality third party material that is both balanced and lore appropriate for Dragons Gate?
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Post by Gryphyx on Jan 30, 2015 16:06:30 GMT -7
What I'm getting from these posts and other discussion. - Magic Item Crafting = To be balanced, it should be removed. However, its fricken cool to have in the game so its staying. Changes should be focused on minimizing disparity. Fear that the 90% point is going to pull folks off the WBL mark so maybe should be 70/80 Instead of 80/90
- Combat Minions = Down to 1
- Blaster changes = Seems to have people scratching their heads other than not stacking the the dmg to dmg die changes.
- Meta magic = Seems to be an overwhelming majority feeling that broken feats should be banned/fixed, and traits left alone. Besides dazing, looks like persistent is the other offender if we go this route.
- Spirits Gift = Kill it.
- Tome of Battle = General feeling is that the material is good
- Psionics = General feeling from most is that its a cool, balanced system but that its a) rules bloat, and b) another system layered onto the game with many don't want to deal with. Some fear of it being unbalanced but that seems to be mostly scars from experience with 3.5 Psionics.
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Post by cactapus on Jan 30, 2015 16:13:27 GMT -7
(placeholder comment when the proposed changes are actually posted)
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Post by shroudb on Jan 30, 2015 16:16:49 GMT -7
animal companions:
so first thoughts, will actually need to look them one by one for actual referance, but there were always two types of animal companions:
pure stats
abilities
by uniformingly giving stats to everything, you basically make the ability using ones more powerful, while not compensating on the rest. take the dino with the daze on it's tail, or gecko with move freaking everywhere, or triple natural reach grapple frog (which with the changes will have 30ft on the grapple on lvl7) and etc
3pp:
i'm against them because they are usually not balanced. haven't actually read a lot of them in pf to actually judge how much they can or cant break the game though. but particulary, 90% of the weapon psionic abilities just blast out of the water every single magical weapon ability. there are things there that planeshift on crit, and that make vorpal look like the poor kids butterknife.
crafting:
i agree that having crafting is OP as fuck. That said, since your metrics is that characters without crafting are on the spot on wbl, and they already buy at 75%, if you increase that to 90%, then we need to adjust the wealth/game. Primary offender is consumables. By paizo guidelines, and by actual gameplay experience, paizo (and me) enforce a +25% wealth given on consumables. That isn't accouted on the DG table, and this is why martials without crafting are at 100% of wbl despite having access to 75%.
Secondly, there are whole archetypes that are based on crafting, things like forgepriests and such. i suggest those are looked on a one-by-one basis, and given some boost to their crafting. So if one wants to have a dedicated crafter as a character can have him.
I do like crafting staying in game though. it gives us something to do when we dont have time for sessions, and actually it's maybe the single downtime activity that makes it feels like time actually passes outside of games.
Taking all those into account:
Change from 80/90% to 70/80% and add +10% of wealth/session on consumables (potions of clw, potions of lesser restoration, scrolls of remove disease and etc)
One-by-one revist of archetypes focusing on crafting. maybe add a clause like: "if you gained the crafting feat from a class feature, then you can craft at 60% instead of 70%)
prepared casters and alchemists:
cant understand why this is done.
it is a clear advantage given to alchemists (they can copy spellbooks, but their spellbooks cant be copied).
it is severly counteracted by alchemist receiving only 1 spell/lvlup instead of the 2 spells/lvlup that wizards do.
basically, they can copy (with a cost) from more sources, but they get half of what others get.
why was that decision taken, did you felt that they had access to a lot of spells?
weapon balms:
i find durable arrows to be the source of the problem, not balms. basically balms were made to affect 10 arrows, because arrows used to be consumables. Now, with durable silver/adamantine/cold iron, there is no such need.
So, for general purpose, yeah they seem OP compared to melee.
BUT
my opinion is the opposite: buff blanches and such for melee (to last more than 1 freaking hit for their cost) and maybe revert the arrow nerf a bit.
Cost wise, i see alchemical thingies, as the martial's scrolls. So if a 25gp lvl1 scroll can give you holy weapon property for 1min (10rounds, 10 hits, etc), why does a 50-100gp consumable for melee affects only 1 strike?
My opinion:
Blanches, ghost salt and such on melee weapons last for 1 min. Blanches (and etc) for arrows last for 10 hits or 1min whatever comes first. HOLY BALM nerfed to like 4 hits with melee and 4 arrows, because frankly, thats the overpowered one.
(placeholder for bashing cactapus opinions)
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diskelemental
Lich
Banned
A better world, whether you want it or not.
Posts: 781 
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Post by diskelemental on Jan 30, 2015 16:24:19 GMT -7
Alright, gonna go through things in-order.
Crafting:
I've got two main comments about this.
1. Should mundane crafting be exempt from this rule? From what I've seen, mundane crafting allows martials to get their masterwork/special material gear quicker, which allows them to make their brief time in the sun. One of the nice things about playing an alchemy using, is being able to craft super situational items. If I don't use them, there's no real financial penalty, but when they come up, they're an invaluable asset. (Vitus Flasks nearly saved the party in one of Shroudb's recent sessions)
2. The change as proposed solves the "crafters are way over WBL" issue, which is really important, but with the relatively small amount of gold we get, it makes upgrading an arduous process. I would suggest upping the gold per session by ~20%, which should make up for the lack of cheap items on the non-crafter side, while still keeping crafters at the same wealth as everyone else.
Multiple Attacks:
Many Shot isn't on the list of feats, is that intended?
Other than that, I'd need to do some number crunching before I can really in-depth.
Combat Minions:
In the interest of keeping turns short, I'd suggest dropping it to 1 minion.
Other than that, this is a whole lot of Druid specific stuff, which I know nothing about. Pass.
Classes:
Were you guys really having a problem with Blasters? I mean, evocation is considered one of the weakest schools for a reason, I don't think they do enough damage to warrant a ban.
Metamagic traits ban is a direct nerf to Magi, and not much else. Wizards/Sorcs can adapt, Magi need the metamagics to stay relevant. If you guys are concerned about metamagic (which you should be), go after the broken metamagics, not the traits.
Ya guys done good, fuck Divine Protection.
Third Party:
Psionics: Against it. Even with the retooled fluff, I don't think it's something the players should have access to. Pathfinder has enough magic as it is, we don't need a third branch of it making non-casters even less viable. I also don't like the idea of adding on a whole other super-complex system, because it massively increases the rules burden on the GMs. I cant particularly speak to the balance side of it, because I don't have a ton of experience with Psionics, but when you add something like this to the game, you have to consider the impact on all the other material.
Path of War? I like the classes, I like the system, but after thinking about it for a while, all of my arguments against Psionics apply here. PoW classes make many other options obsolete, so I recommend against adding it.
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Post by wizardfrog on Jan 30, 2015 16:34:58 GMT -7
Aetheri:
So Path of war, to answer Aetheris question, yes I do think that path of war completely invalidates non path of war martials. But honestly is that a bad thing? Lets face it, the fighter is a completely subpar class in any situation but when its dishing out full attacks (and even then other classes often times beat it), and the Path of War classes are so superior merely do to there counterparts being inferior. I am against completely removing traditional martials from the game as some players do like the simpler martial classes. An idea that was thrown around was if we allow path of war, giving any full bab martial who hits a certain level (prob 3-4) the option to completely retrain into a PoW class if they feel so (and being able to do so after 3-4 as well). This way if you want to play a simpler martial you are still entitled to, but if you feel like you want a more complex (imo better) full bab class you can turn into one at no charge to yourself besides some lost downtime.
Disks Questions:
1. I am in the camp that mundane should not be effected, I believe the other leads intended this as well.
2. That is one of the issues I have brought up, many characters who are not crafting feel behind wealth by level slightly, I don't believe from the math it was as bad as 20%, a change will probably have to be enacted if crafting gets nerfed.
4. Many shot was intentionally left out, archery is kind of to powerful at those levels. Take note that the attack cap is removed at 11+
5. 2 feels about right, limiting it to 1 seemed to far after alot of thought.
6. The problem was blasters at lower levels were completely trivalizing encounters, thankfully only 1 person really optimized around it. when your doing upwards of 5d4+15 damage in a aoe cone at level 3 something is terribly wrong.
7. Banning both might be too far, but magus's are not lacking in damage and power even without the metamagic traits, especially after the realease of the ACG. Wizards and sorc blasting builds just abused them to the point of hilarity.
Finally, on third party: Yeah its alot to add and take in, but its no different then when paizo releases a new book. People are remarkable good at learning these things quickly. That being said, I do understand what your saying, and feedback like that is entirely the reason for this public forum outreach.
Shroud:
1. I've looked through and statted up about every medium animal I could find and all the outliers were dealt with above (might of even been to nerfed in some cases). If I missed any please feel free to yell at me.
2. Yeah disk made the same comment, any nerf to crafting feats will probably come along with session reward adjustments.
3. On sharing spells: It was mostly because the paizo rules do not account for what we are trying to accomplish here. Wizards and alchemists are supposed to get new spells through wealth but when you have all the wizards and alchemists in DG swapping spells it can lead to situations like 10 wizards buying 1 spell each, swapping with eachother, and essentially getting 10 spells for the price of 1. That said it is possible there are more solutions to the problem than just prohibiting it. I just think the simplest solution is the easiest. It nerfs alchemists yes, but if its a big enough deal maybe changing them to 2/lvl is within reason. Have to think more on this.
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Post by aetheri on Jan 30, 2015 16:51:23 GMT -7
Hm, mainly concerned with 2 things.
1) Path of War, great book and gives martial a much needed bump for them to compare with casters. However it does completely overshadow existing martial classes by far. While this currently does normally happen at mid-high lvls, the disparity between the two types comes up straight at level 1. I almost feel that if PoW is to be allowed, then you might as well ban all existing martial.
2) I think one of the best thing about Pathfinder is the fact PFSRD exists. Therefore while I understand some changes are needed, I also wish there will not be frequent sweeping changes to the game. If not for anything else, then consider it for the new players and how confusing it might be.
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Post by sentrydown on Jan 30, 2015 16:53:28 GMT -7
Everything is fire
[Placeholder]
So after reading through these, I don't have any real complaints. None of these changes affect any of my current characters, nor do I see any issues with the balance changes proposed.
I am all for including 3PP content. In my home games, I have allowed a certain number of them and I found that they -generally- are not as overpowered as they might seem at first glance. For Path of War, for example, has maneuvers, some of which are strikes, but if they choose to use a Strike Maneuver cannot use their full round attack. Basically, it's a trade off between extra attacks or using the maneuver (unless otherwise stated.) Also, PoW classes don't have some of the class features that their "base" class would. Take the Warder for example, clearly based on the Paladin, does not get spellcasting or Lay on Hands. All the PoW are just alternate class options that I do not find over powered.
I have no comment on psionics, as I have never used them, not have I ever allowed them in my home games. I like them mechanically, but I do not like them flavour wise.
As for other 3PP content, I suggest taking a look at Purple Duck Games's "Legendary" series for rules on artifact items if you guys ever consider implementing them.
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Post by Gryphyx on Jan 30, 2015 17:09:55 GMT -7
animal companions: so first thoughts, will actually need to look them one by one for actual referance, but there were always two types of animal companions: pure stats abilities by uniformingly giving stats to everything, you basically make the ability using ones more powerful, while not compensating on the rest. take the dino with the daze on it's tail, or gecko with move freaking everywhere, or triple natural reach grapple frog (which with the changes will have 30ft on the grapple on lvl7) and etc We've done this. Not only have we done this, we've taken the best of each type and stated them out at level seven with both raw numbers and numbers optimally equipped. For example, look at a bear and cat. A bear is pure dpr and at L7 is at around 23 DPR. A cat has pounce and grab (on up to three attacks if it has combat reflexes) and is at about 18 DPR. Note that this is including the buff we've give the bear. This looks about right to us. Also, I'd suggest looking at the categories differently. - Those that officially stop at a L4 medium bump and have one or two attacks.
- Those that officially stop at a L4 medium bump and have three attacks.
- Those that already get a L7 Large bump.
- Outliers - Of which we've only really identified maybe three i think.
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Post by Gryphyx on Jan 30, 2015 17:14:59 GMT -7
Hm, mainly concerned with 2 things. 1) Path of War, great book and gives martial a much needed bump for them to compare with casters. However it does completely overshadow existing martial classes by far. While this currently does normally happen at mid-high lvls, the disparity between the two types comes up straight at level 1. I almost feel that if PoW is to be allowed, then you might as well ban all existing martial. 2) I think one of the best thing about Pathfinder is the fact PFSRD exists. Therefore while I understand some changes are needed, I also wish there will not be frequent sweeping changes to the game. If not for anything else, then consider it for the new players and how confusing it might be. 1) To add to what wizard answered above, we also want to buff other martials once we fully understand the PoW power level. This will be a long term thing. 2) Definitely. However, we want balance. I'm afraid there's nothing in between. Anything we change will be well documented on the wiki so it will still be available as a free and easily accessible resource. |
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Post by Gryphyx on Jan 30, 2015 17:18:04 GMT -7
Crafting Responses to Shroud and Disk:
When we exampled WPL of our characters we looked at an accumulation of session rewards. So the 25% discount players have been getting on magic items is irrelevant for these calculations. For crafters we then went in and and added money they've made from selling to other players as well as looking at an additional 25% of what they've crafted for themselves.
Our intention was for this to apply to magic item crafting. I will check the wording presently.
*edit: Ok wording was different in two places. Fixed to indicate this is for magic item crafting.
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Post by dawizahr on Jan 30, 2015 17:21:08 GMT -7
(My response for the moment)
I would be against the addition of Psionics for many of the reasons that have been stated. There are enough flavors of magic already (which isn't even touching on balance). I'd rather that psionics remain in the hands of monsters and not players.
As for crafting, I like where the nerf is going. This is one of the biggest offenders of power imbalance I've seen so far, but I'd rather not see crafting go away. If it did I suppose I wouldn't be too offended so long as some sort of adjustment were made to the Forgepriest so I could keep playing it as I love the flavor.
With the crafting change the WPL of crafters and non-crafters will still be different, but I should think the difference should be significantly smaller. To shrink it down even further you may wish to look at offering discounts (perhaps even down to 80% price) at the shop to encourage non-crafters to buy elsewhere.
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tkul
Death Knight
Banned
Posts: 406
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Post by tkul on Jan 30, 2015 17:22:08 GMT -7
So my first off the cuff are -
Yay path of war - Can we retrain (using the posted rules) existing characters into it when it unlocks?
# of attacks per round - Does this only effect your basic attack action or all attacks (AOO, Parry/Riposte, etc).
Sorcerers - Have you considered just straight up banning Crossblooded? For all flavors of sorcerer have you considered adding a clause that the bonus damage the bloodline/favrored class levels get only count for spells cast as a Sorcerer to stop things like admixture wizard/sorcerer cheese.
Crafting - If you're taking votes, I vote to take it off of characters for permanent items and make the NPC emporium the magic item shop. A feat slot for all the stuff your crafting could give you is a small price to pay. Consumables should still be fine I'd think since they're already almost negligible in cost after the first couple levels.
Animal Companions - Any plans to go through and clean up the companion list to make the animals closer to the generic animal types? Right now some companions get abilities that the base animal just flat out doesn't have. Also might want to look at Spirit's Gift (feat), it's just bonkers at lower levels.
Weapon Balm - Just stupid good as is. even 4 ammo per balm is pretty strong. Even with the nerf it's still 4x stronger than it would be on a melee weapon, which begs the question why anyone would ever put it on a melee weapon.
Zen Archer - I don't think the ki point extra attack is the real problem. Their feats need to be spread out a lot. The effectively have Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Point Blank Master, and Weapon Focus all by level 3, with a free Many Shot coming in later. That's the entire core of the ranged character's kit with the exception of deadly aim and clustered shots. Those feats plus the ki attack was a little much but it's not the ki attack's fault. It really needs to be spread out to be closer to the Archer Ranger's rate.
Daze - I never really saw Daze is being a game changer so this is fine.
Psionics - Please use transparent Psionics (Psionics as Magic is usually what they call it in the books). Having to keep PR,SR, anti-magic, anti-psionic, etc straight is a pain in the ass.
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Post by shroudb on Jan 30, 2015 17:24:52 GMT -7
Crafting Responses to Shroud and Disk: When we exampled WPL of our characters we looked at an accumulation of session rewards. So the 25% discount players have been getting on magic items is irrelevant for these calculations. For crafters we then went in and and added money they've made from selling to other players as well as looking at an additional 25% of what they've crafted for themselves. Our intention was for this to apply to magic item crafting. I will check the wording presently. still, that doesn't account for consumables. the wbl table is basically the wealth if you start on a certain level. it is assumed, you had spend some money on consumables on the way there. so, with all the restorations, potions, scrolls, that we buy, that is all unaccounted for if you calculate the wealth given to be exactly as much as the wbl you would have at lvl X. that's why in the guidelines, it says to account for the consumables. My thoughts, are that the greater differance comes from the 25% gap between crafters and not crafters (50% vs 75%) more so than the pure value. And the fact that ofc, 50% is like double wbl. I would personally start at like 70/80 (onlt 10% differance so the gap lessens) and see if it is enough, rather than going for a straight 80%/90% |
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Post by Gryphyx on Jan 30, 2015 17:28:05 GMT -7
3pp: i'm against them because they are usually not balanced. haven't actually read a lot of them in pf to actually judge how much they can or cant break the game though. but particulary, 90% of the weapon psionic abilities just blast out of the water every single magical weapon ability. there are things there that planeshift on crit, and that make vorpal look like the poor kids butterknife. prepared casters and alchemists: cant understand why this is done. it is a clear advantage given to alchemists (they can copy spellbooks, but their spellbooks cant be copied). it is severly counteracted by alchemist receiving only 1 spell/lvlup instead of the 2 spells/lvlup that wizards do. basically, they can copy (with a cost) from more sources, but they get half of what others get. why was that decision taken, did you felt that they had access to a lot of spells? weapon balms: i find durable arrows to be the source of the problem, not balms. basically balms were made to affect 10 arrows, because arrows used to be consumables. Now, with durable silver/adamantine/cold iron, there is no such need. So, for general purpose, yeah they seem OP compared to melee. BUT my opinion is the opposite: buff blanches and such for melee (to last more than 1 freaking hit for their cost) and maybe revert the arrow nerf a bit. Cost wise, i see alchemical thingies, as the martial's scrolls. So if a 25gp lvl1 scroll can give you holy weapon property for 1min (10rounds, 10 hits, etc), why does a 50-100gp consumable for melee affects only 1 strike? My opinion: Blanches, ghost salt and such on melee weapons last for 1 min. Blanches (and etc) for arrows last for 10 hits or 1min whatever comes first. HOLY BALM nerfed to like 4 hits with melee and 4 arrows, because frankly, thats the overpowered one. (placeholder for bashing cactapus opinions) 3pp - General agreements seems to be that the dreamscarred stuff is balanced. For your comment to be useful I'd need you to point out specific problem cases. prepared casters and alchemists - The rules never intended access to spells like this. Its yet another advantage to the exact group of characters who do not need advantages. Weapon balms - I don't see what difference durable arrows make. They have zero impact on how many uses you get out of weapon balms and any archer is going to have more than enough arrows already. Durable only matters for adamantine arrows, which are really expensive and can only be used indoors without risking a lost on miss chance. I've probably used blanches and balms on my archer more than any other character in DG and the price/use of the blanches is fine. They're there for emergencies. Balms are the problem. At 30gp a pop getting 7 hits out of them is just crazy. Admittedly, I've only really looked at the holy balm though so i guess I should go review the others. |
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Post by shroudb on Jan 30, 2015 17:28:12 GMT -7
oh, soz for double posting but yeah, spirit's gift should be straight out banned as well.
dr 5 at lvl1 is bonkers, and later on, when dr/5 doesnt cut it (although it always will affect things), permanent fast healing 1 means never to have to heal your companion in between battles
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Post by shroudb on Jan 30, 2015 17:33:47 GMT -7
3pp: i'm against them because they are usually not balanced. haven't actually read a lot of them in pf to actually judge how much they can or cant break the game though. but particulary, 90% of the weapon psionic abilities just blast out of the water every single magical weapon ability. there are things there that planeshift on crit, and that make vorpal look like the poor kids butterknife. prepared casters and alchemists: cant understand why this is done. it is a clear advantage given to alchemists (they can copy spellbooks, but their spellbooks cant be copied). it is severly counteracted by alchemist receiving only 1 spell/lvlup instead of the 2 spells/lvlup that wizards do. basically, they can copy (with a cost) from more sources, but they get half of what others get. why was that decision taken, did you felt that they had access to a lot of spells? weapon balms: i find durable arrows to be the source of the problem, not balms. basically balms were made to affect 10 arrows, because arrows used to be consumables. Now, with durable silver/adamantine/cold iron, there is no such need. So, for general purpose, yeah they seem OP compared to melee. BUT my opinion is the opposite: buff blanches and such for melee (to last more than 1 freaking hit for their cost) and maybe revert the arrow nerf a bit. Cost wise, i see alchemical thingies, as the martial's scrolls. So if a 25gp lvl1 scroll can give you holy weapon property for 1min (10rounds, 10 hits, etc), why does a 50-100gp consumable for melee affects only 1 strike? My opinion: Blanches, ghost salt and such on melee weapons last for 1 min. Blanches (and etc) for arrows last for 10 hits or 1min whatever comes first. HOLY BALM nerfed to like 4 hits with melee and 4 arrows, because frankly, thats the overpowered one. (placeholder for bashing cactapus opinions) 3pp - General agreements seems to be that the dreamscarred stuff is balanced. For your comment to be useful I'd need you to point out specific problem cases. prepared casters and alchemists - The rules never intended access to spells like this. Its yet another advantage to the exact group of characters who do not need advantages. Weapon balms - I don't see what difference durable arrows make. They have zero impact on how many uses you get out of weapon balms and any archer is going to have more than enough arrows already. Durable only matters for adamantine arrows, which are really expensive and can only be used indoors without risking a lost on miss chance. I've probably used blanches and balms on my archer more than any other character in DG and the price/use of the blanches is fine. They're there for emergencies. Balms are the problem. At 30gp a pop getting 7 hits out of them is just crazy. Admittedly, I've only really looked at the holy balm though so i guess I should go review the others. "balanced" dreamscared press stuff: Bodyfeeder All feeder weapons have a special ability that functions only upon scoring a successful critical hit. A bodyfeeder weapon grants its wielder temporary hit points equal to the total damage dealt by a successful critical hit. These temporary hit points last for 10 minutes. Thus, if the wielder of a bodyfeeder weapon successfully scores a critical hit while the wielder still enjoys temporary hit points from a previous critical hit, the wielder gains only the better of the two values: either his current number of temporary hit points, or the new influx of temporary hit points, whichever is higher. dislocator The wielder of this kind of weapon can attempt to greatly dislocate a designated foe up to three times per day. On a successful hit, the foe must succeed on a DC 20 Will save or be cast into a random alternate plane of existence. If the weapon misses, the use is wasted. Bows, crossbows, and slings bestow this ability upon their ammunition. Linked Striking Weapons with this special ability gain no benefit the first time they strike an enemy, but establish a link that on subsequent hits treats the weapon’s enhancement bonus as 2 higher and deals an additional +2d6 points of damage. Striking another creature resets this link. A creature wielding multiple weapons with this quality treats all weapons as using the same link, so subsequent attacks with any linked striking weapon against the linked target gain the benefit, while attacks with any of the linked striking weapons against another target resets the link. Aura Moderate psychokinesis; ML 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, gravitational well; Price +2 bonus. Parrying A parrying weapon perceives an instant into the future, and of its own accord resists melee and ranged attacks aimed at the wielder, granting a +1 insight bonus to the wielder’s Armor Class. The weapon is so adept at parrying that it even affects incoming powers, granting the wielder a +1 insight bonus on saving throws. The bonuses are granted whenever the wielder holds the weapon, even if flat-footed. Aura Faint clairsentience; ML 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, defensive precognition; Price +8,000 gp. etc as for durable, the differance is this: old times, before them, you couldnt afford to throw real silver arrows at everything with dr. so you had to use blanches. now, that you simply repick your arrows after the fight, that isnt a problem. and again, paying 100gp for a 1 strike bonus on a weapon, when a 25gp scroll gives you more benefits and lasts a whole minute is stupid imo. alchemists and spellbooks: here you are flat out wrong: from alchemist section: "" An alchemist can study a wizard's spellbook to learn any formula that is equivalent to a spell the spellbook contains. A wizard, however, cannot learn spells from a formula book. An alchemist does not need to decipher arcane writings before copying them." it is a CLEAR advantage given to the alchemist (a 6th lvl caster) vs the wizard (a 9th level caster) and balanced around the fact that alchemist only received ONE spell/level up for free instead of the standard two that all other classes get. |
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Post by Gryphyx on Jan 30, 2015 17:36:29 GMT -7
Alright, gonna go through things in-order. Crafting: I've got two main comments about this. 1. Should mundane crafting be exempt from this rule? From what I've seen, mundane crafting allows martials to get their masterwork/special material gear quicker, which allows them to make their brief time in the sun. One of the nice things about playing an alchemy using, is being able to craft super situational items. If I don't use them, there's no real financial penalty, but when they come up, they're an invaluable asset. (Vitus Flasks nearly saved the party in one of Shroudb's recent sessions) 2. The change as proposed solves the "crafters are way over WBL" issue, which is really important, but with the relatively small amount of gold we get, it makes upgrading an arduous process. I would suggest upping the gold per session by ~20%, which should make up for the lack of cheap items on the non-crafter side, while still keeping crafters at the same wealth as everyone else. Multiple Attacks: Many Shot isn't on the list of feats, is that intended? Other than that, I'd need to do some number crunching before I can really in-depth. Metamagic traits ban is a direct nerf to Magi, and not much else. Wizards/Sorcs can adapt, Magi need the metamagics to stay relevant. If you guys are concerned about metamagic (which you should be), go after the broken metamagics, not the traits. 1 & 2: See post on crafting. Magic item only & award bump not necessary to keep folks at standard WPL. 3: Manyshot is not effected in any way shape or form by this limit. It is not an additional attack. Yes this means that fighter archers probably pull ahead of zen archers at some levels given the ZA nerf, but the monk has a lot more mobility, survivability, and other cool shit. 4. what besides dazing spell are the broken metamagics? is making daze mind effecting enough or should it be banned outright? |
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Zanos
Leadership Council
No
how did i get here i am not good with computer
Posts: 684
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Post by Zanos on Jan 30, 2015 17:39:50 GMT -7
I've already shared my thoughts privately with the other Devs, but I'll post them here as well for others to see.
Firstly, we need to have a comprehensive list of things that allow people to break the attack limit cap. This isn't set in stone right now, but Two Weapon Fighting and short duration buff spells will probably be on the list. Natural attacks won't.
I agree with sorc bloodline damage die not stacking, but I don't agree with limiting it based on your sorcerer level. Casters typically lose an awful lot by dipping a level in another casting class that doesn't provide synergy or have dual progression. I personally think that a wizard losing a level of sorc progression for the bloodline powers is fine.
Dazing spell should be straight out removed, as it's still basically a win vs things not immune to mind-effecting. Making Daze mind-affecting is a good step. It should also be made to not work on things immune to stunning.
Retraining still needs to be modified to disallow retraining into an otherwise illegal build.
I personally don't feel that Path of War makes other martial options as bad as Tome of Battle did in 3.5. In 3.5 very few martials had real class features, so being a Warblade was a pretty obvious choice if it was on the table. Even with Path of War on the table, I still think that Barbarian rage powers and partial-casters are attractive. The fighter still isn't a great option(although it isn't bad per say), but that was always the case. Keep in mind that normal martial classes can supplement their builds with initiator feats that grant maneuvers, which is actually really nice for fighters.
I'll be forward about this bit, I fucking hate psionics. I think the basic manifesting mechanic is very good, but many psionic powers are extremely wide open for breaking the action economy over their knee and access to affects that just aren't avaliable outside of psionic powers. In essence, it's a can of worms that I don't like. I also feel that psionics has no real niche it fills. "Smart guy who does magic stuff" is already filled by being a wizard, or an arcanist, or a witch, or a sage sorcerer. I guess psion is nice if you really want to huff crystals in a sci-fi campaign.
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Post by Gryphyx on Jan 30, 2015 17:41:04 GMT -7
3pp - General agreements seems to be that the dreamscarred stuff is balanced. For your comment to be useful I'd need you to point out specific problem cases. prepared casters and alchemists - The rules never intended access to spells like this. Its yet another advantage to the exact group of characters who do not need advantages. Weapon balms - I don't see what difference durable arrows make. They have zero impact on how many uses you get out of weapon balms and any archer is going to have more than enough arrows already. Durable only matters for adamantine arrows, which are really expensive and can only be used indoors without risking a lost on miss chance. I've probably used blanches and balms on my archer more than any other character in DG and the price/use of the blanches is fine. They're there for emergencies. Balms are the problem. At 30gp a pop getting 7 hits out of them is just crazy. Admittedly, I've only really looked at the holy balm though so i guess I should go review the others. alchemists and spellbooks: here you are flat out wrong: from alchemist section: "" An alchemist can study a wizard's spellbook to learn any formula that is equivalent to a spell the spellbook contains. A wizard, however, cannot learn spells from a formula book. An alchemist does not need to decipher arcane writings before copying them." it is a CLEAR advantage given to the alchemist (a 6th lvl caster) vs the wizard (a 9th level caster) and balanced around the fact that alchemist only received ONE spell/level up for free instead of the standard two that all other classes get. We'll have to add each of those to the list of things to look at in the dreamscarred stuff. This is the kind of stuff we need for the 3rd party material. Eventually we'll have to make a decision about how much needs adjusting and if its too much to tackle or not. I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing with the spell thing. The intent is not to stop alchemists from learning from wizards. Then intent is to stop any character from learning spells/recipes from any other character. They may still buy whatever they want from NPCs. |
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Post by wizardfrog on Jan 30, 2015 17:48:15 GMT -7
So my first off the cuff are - Yay path of war - Can we retrain (using the posted rules) existing characters into it when it unlocks? # of attacks per round - Does this only effect your basic attack action or all attacks (AOO, Parry/Riposte, etc). Sorcerers - Have you considered just straight up banning Crossblooded? For all flavors of sorcerer have you considered adding a clause that the bonus damage the bloodline/favrored class levels get only count for spells cast as a Sorcerer to stop things like admixture wizard/sorcerer cheese. Crafting - If you're taking votes, I vote to take it off of characters for permanent items and make the NPC emporium the magic item shop. A feat slot for all the stuff your crafting could give you is a small price to pay. Consumables should still be fine I'd think since they're already almost negligible in cost after the first couple levels. Animal Companions - Any plans to go through and clean up the companion list to make the animals closer to the generic animal types? Right now some companions get abilities that the base animal just flat out doesn't have. Also might want to look at Spirit's Gift (feat), it's just bonkers at lower levels. Weapon Balm - Just stupid good as is. even 4 ammo per balm is pretty strong. Even with the nerf it's still 4x stronger than it would be on a melee weapon, which begs the question why anyone would ever put it on a melee weapon. Zen Archer - I don't think the ki point extra attack is the real problem. Their feats need to be spread out a lot. The effectively have Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Point Blank Master, and Weapon Focus all by level 3, with a free Many Shot coming in later. That's the entire core of the ranged character's kit with the exception of deadly aim and clustered shots. Those feats plus the ki attack was a little much but it's not the ki attack's fault. It really needs to be spread out to be closer to the Archer Ranger's rate. Daze - I never really saw Daze is being a game changer so this is fine. Psionics - Please use transparent Psionics (Psionics as Magic is usually what they call it in the books). Having to keep PR,SR, anti-magic, anti-psionic, etc straight is a pain in the ass. 1. Yep, look in my above post all martial focused characters get the option for a free retraining 2. Yes, this only effects your full attack 3. Eh, crossblooded wasnt the problem, you can make really cool characters with it, the problem was mostly the damage stacking on optimized wizard/sorceror builds 4. Eh, cleaning up the list isnt really a priority. I do agree that spirit guide needs some fucking work, that feat is dumb. Maybe giving a level restriction? (lvl 7?) 5. Agreed dumb item 6. Yeah, its rediculous that they have the equivalent of fighters feat spread on top of monk features. I think toning down there damage is a good first step however. 7. It hasnt come up yet, but having played in a lot of higher level games daze is dumb. On top of the condition itself being poorly worded, I am in favor of flat banning the feat 8. The dreamscarred books automatically assume transparency. I dont understand why anyone would play it otherwise, its fucking magic, just a different kind than divine and arcane. For those worried about psionics complexety: Is it any more complex than vancian? Maybe my bias is blinding me but when I first started playing I felt it was wayyy easier to learn than vancian casting style. Its just a mana bar. Its pretty much exactly how video games treat spells in almost all cases. You have mana and you have your spells, when you cast spells you use mana. Same thing with powerpoints and powers. Again, this could be just my large amounts of experience with the system lol. |
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Post by shroudb on Jan 30, 2015 17:50:30 GMT -7
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing with the spell thing. The intent is not to stop alchemists from learning from wizards. Then intent is to stop any character from learning spells/recipes from any other character. They may still buy whatever they want from NPCs. nope, we arent talking about the same thing then. the wording had me confused that it was about not having alchemist for some reason being able to copy wizard, or other prepared spellcaster's spellbook. nvm the edits, i apparently cant read at 3:00am |
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diskelemental
Lich
Banned
A better world, whether you want it or not.
Posts: 781
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Post by diskelemental on Jan 30, 2015 17:54:10 GMT -7
Gryphyx4. Ban it. For those worried about psionics complexity: Is it any more complex than vancian? The issue is with rules bloat. Tacking on a whole 'nother system that GMs need to learn, significantly raises the knowledge barrier.
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